Wywiad z Janem Karskim

(00:30)
Trip to London in October 1942, was my fourth mission. In December 1939, I was sent to Paris, successful. April 1940, back to Warsaw, success. June 1940, again to France, unsuccessful arrest in Presov in Slovakia. But the underground somehow saved me. I don't enter into the details. And then fourth trip to London. Well, already during the summer 1942, I was summoned by the delegate of the Polish Government in exile, Cyryl Ratański. And he told me, all the leaders of political parties have confidence. Whatever you are doing is successful. You were arrested, you were tortured, you didn't betray the secrets. But you resumed your activities. They want to send you to London. Will you go? This was in Warsaw? In Warsaw. During the summer. I told him, naturally, I will go. And I started to go from leader to leader for messages. At the day, Jasiukowicz, who later was convicted in Moscow, I remember, Polboński, Pużak, Mierzwasz, Łaski, both in Krakow and in Warsaw. Leader and leader of the different- Different organizations.

 (02:35)
Surzycki Stronnictwo Narodowe, JasiukowiczNationalistic Party, Pużak, S Socialists, the Korwoński Peasant Party, and others. Now, it must have been approximately in September. Ratajski summons me again and tells me that he has a problem, mainly. There are some two Jewish organizations underground. Their leaders learned about me, that I go to London. They came to him and argued that they are Polish citizens. If the Polish political parties have courier to go to London, they have a right to use services as well. So Ratajski tells me, he told me this was my pseudonym. I told them that I cannot sign them. Vito was your At that time. Because we had to bring people up and down different. So I told him that I cannot decide. Vetrov was your pseudonym? At that time. We had pseudonyms, you took people up and down differently. So I told him that I cannot decide. I have to ask you, do you agree I said, I will do it. Now I am asking him, When you do it? I said, No, you can't do it. It's somewhere 10 days or something later, we had system,. Meeting with those Jewish leaders. Now, one of them, everybody must have been final because I described him physically.

 (04:30)
He looked like a classical Polish nobleman. Beautiful face, mustachos, Swedish to up, well-being, beautiful Curl mustache. Presentation, yes, good presentation. His picture is in a museum, Holocaust Museum. So I remember then in my book, which I wrote during the War Story of a Secret State, I described him, of course, I didn't know his name. So everybody agrees it was fine then. The second one, there is no agreement. Some people say it was Ariel. Wibner. I didn't know him, any of them. Some say it was final. Different names are. Encyclopedia judaica, I think that they speculated, probably it was Zionist. It must have been Zionist. Now, Bermann publicly said that he was not, and there is no reason not to believe him, of course. So anyway, I don't know the second. And now, so I had with them two meetings, suburbs of Warsaw. It must have been probably early October. Already cold enough, no electricity. Half a ruined house. It was in the evening with candles. Horrible. The most prominent who spoke was Fyner, he was Socialist or leader of the Bund. I remember very well. Most of the things my experiences during the war, I forgot those.

(06:45)
But those which I remember, I remember as if they were yesterday. Yes. Some of them are in my memory. He finally asked me, Do I know what is happening to the Jews? So I said, Sir, everybody knows what is happening. They send them to concentration camps , they kill them, et cetera, et cetera. He says, No, you don't know. The Jewish masses do not realize what is happening to the Jews. They still have hope. We, the leaders, we know Hitler and his henchmen decided to murder all Jews in all of Europe, wherever they will come. We know it. For years, I wondered, Where is this? On his part, rather arrogant. We know it. Long after the war, I learned. In February, there was this famous, at the time, most secret, Van Zee conference of the highest officials, during which final solution was decided. Apparently, the Jewish leaders got some win. Apparently, with such a certainty, he told me. Next point. He was more active than the other Zionist. Zionist leader was rather hysterical. His appearance rather insignificant. At a certain point, he started to cry as he cried, choking as a drum. Finally, he was a lawyer because they were very prominent in Poland, knowing Europe, languages as I learned later on.

 (08:45)
Now, his statement was, we cannot hope that foes will help us. Foes can save individuals, but they cannot stop destruction of the Jews. They are persecuted themselves. Only powerful ally leaders can help us. Now, we told you, we know about you. This is your fourth mission. Everything you do is successful. You know languages, you know Europe. If you were in the diplomatic service before the war, you are smart. We want to try to approach as many people as possible, Polish, English, American, whatsoever. We cannot tell you now. We don't know what is the situation. We have to rely on your smartness, on your intelligence and goodwill, telling them this, that we cannot, that we are dying. You will approach also our representative of the Bund was Szmul-Zygielbojm. The representative of Zionist was Schwarzbart, Dr. Schwarzbart. I arrived in London the second part of November 1942. The record shows already second of December, I reported to Schwarzbart and to Zygielbojm as soon as possible. The first few days, I was exhausted completely, and Nicolaici cut me off from any people I had to recover. Well, so now, gentlemen, what do you want me to tell them?
(10:54)
And they presented several demands now. Are you interested in those demands? Yes. Which if I were able, I was supposed to do my best to present. The first. Trying to contact the most powerful leaders. At that time, we didn't know by Richland altogether, whomever you will aim to be. Good point is, you speak English and you have experience and your smart. So the first one. Let the Western... My mission was only to the Western leaders, not to the Soviet, not to the Soviet ambassador. Let the Western leaders make a public declaration that stopping destruction of the Jews became a part of the Allied war strategy. And now, final text, we told them, We know we cannot influence the war strategy. They will proceed the way they want. But such a declaration may be important because all humanity will learn about it. Millions of people, and this is what we want. Humanity does not know what is happening to us. Let them make such a declaration. This is Fiener. This is Fiener, yes. He was more intelligent than the other fellow. Was not a smart. Perhaps it will influence his money. Pressure on German, on the German people.

 (12:39)
So this was one demand. Do I understand? I said, Sir, I understand. What is about? I will do it if I reach London. The second. Money is needed. There are many Polish families who will hide our people. But they are hungry themselves. They must be paid. We have many cases that entire Jewish families are in hiding. Well, we can I expect from a worker or peasant that they will feed them, God knows for how long without money. Money is needed. As far as money is concerned, hard currency or gold. German marks are not trusted. Already people don't want them. Police lot is nobody. It cares to have them, et cetera. Dollars, pounds, or gold. Money is needed. Next. Let them plant Germany with millions of leaflets. The material which you are carrying now at this at this point, I have to tell you, my mission was oral, but I also received regular house code key in which- a House? Regular household key, which I was supposed to have in my pocket with some other keys, and that key was microfilm. At the time, America was at war, sending us equipment. Yes, right. Sophisticated. With microfilm.

(14:38)
Yes. And then it was well, unrecognizable. And final says, Here you have a report is happening to us. Let them flood Germany with millions of leaflets, specifying the names, the days, methods of destruction, our suffering, et cetera. Perhaps it will impress the German people. And asking in those leaflets, appealing to the German people to exercise a pressure on their government, which means on Hitler, to stop destruction of the Jews. No. Perhaps it will help. Perhaps they will reflect it. Making German people responsible if they do not undertake some pressure on their own government. Let them do. We have no other way. Another mission. We are Jews. Germans are Christians. Poles are Catholic. Hitler is a Catholic. The Pope might help. It is in there. I remember, a viner says it, half jokingly. We are Jews. We don't know how one speaks. He speaks to your Pope. Because we know that you believe that he has a power to open and close the heavens. Let them close the heavens to those who persecute us. He has such a power. Perhaps it will have some result. Again, Hitler is a baptized Catholic. By the way, I don't know.

(16:38)
Will you? We publish it, I tell you, leave it to your judgment. He was complained. There were many Poles who were denouncing, blackmailing, delivering the Jews to Gestapo for money, for vodka, Schmarzowniki . I carried also a mission for authorisation from Sikorski as Commander-in-Chief and the Prime Minister to allow underground courts to condemn them to death, to killed them, those. So the point- You carry that? Oh, yes. I met- From Sikorsky. With Sikorsky the end of January, because when I arrived in London, he was preparing himself to go to the United States, Mexico, Canada. So he didn't speak to me. He only semoned me and said... He spoke about himself in third person. He was very of the fusion. Commander-in-chief decided to decorate you, you thought you were in trouble. You will get it after my return. So and later I learned that it was his trip over there. He was replaced by Nikołajczyk vice Prime Minister. So now this is the and about Schmarzowniki . Oh, yes, I thought she caused him at that time. At that time. After he returned, which means the end of January. The record shows that executions of those Schmarzowniki were denouncing that you started in March.

 (18:38)
So although he never... This was '41? '43. '43. Started in March. So though I haven't heard it from Sikorski, when he returned, I saw him, of course, several times. But apparently, he issued some permission, because Korwonski, in his book says, that we started to execute those schmarzowniki, in March. These were more or less the most important messages. Now, already at the end of this conversation, again, finally, He tells me, You are lucky and you are smart. I don't know any other folk who was successful during those times. It would help your Jewish brothers if you could under oath say that you saw it. I would like to organize for you a mission to the Warsaw Ghetto. There is no danger. We know the situation. At that time, Jewish children were getting out of the ghetto, begging on the streets of Warsaw. To escape from the Warsaw ghetto, other ghetto, was not difficult. The difficulty came, then what? Where will you go? So finally, to give you more self-assurance, I will go with you. At that time, in this was now beginning with October, out of 450,000 in the Warsaw Ghetto, there were no more than 60,000, 70,000 Jews.

(20:58)
Because in July already deportation to Treblinka. At that time, as I entered, tramways were passing through the ghetto. Only the aliens could not get out on the territory of the ghetto. You understand? It was not difficult to go over there. At that time, there were already four smaller ghettos, each one specializing in the work they were doing, repairing uniforms, making uniforms, shoes whatsoever. And he told me this, there is no danger. Well, many, many years ago, some three years, I went to Australia and met a man, his name, Landau. He told me, He died a few months ago, that it was he, at that time, 15 year old. He was to watch over my entrance. I entered Ulica Muranowska, 6, in a way, through the canal, under the basement houses. He gave me those chest. With Fiener? No, no, no. This fellow after the war, went to Australia, to Melbourne. He became one of the richest men in Australia. Smart like hell. He got me those chest. Oh, really? 19th century, original Chinese, with an inscription, Dudek, Landau, also. That's very nice. Wonderful. Very good. Yes. So he maintains. It was Ulica Muranowska, 6, of course, I didn't know why you were.

 (23:00)
So this was one. Now, I saw terrible... So now, what do I say now? Now I go to my trip or already- Maybe you could describe what you saw in the ghetto. In the ghetto. I saw terrible things. Altogether, I saw too much during the war. For many years, I was like an emotionally crippled First other, literally, I saw some naked old men, like dead, Only some newspapers in the middle, not modesty. So I asked the guy, What is this means? Dancer, whispering. They wanted us to pay taxes, pay for the funeral. Secondly, already the winter is coming. Every piece of clothing comes. It came to the point that the poor Jews went A member of the family dying. They lived on the street. They have no money. And the clothes, apparently, mid of the winter is coming already. It was October. Already, it was rather Another picture. I saw a woman walking the seat with a baby. No modesty. Her breast, visible, and the baby sucking it was not breast. It was a piece of skin. Looking, it was not human. And He was walking, the baby did not cry, she didn't cry. A horrible.

(25:08)
I saw a man, rather And staying, standing against the wall, looking at me. No more. So I asked, I know who is that? That's me. What does it mean? He whisper, He's dying. Just dying. And we were walking in the States. And then I said, I cannot take you. All right. He was very much matter of fact. He didn't show me either friendship, nothing. He was my duty. I was doing my duty. He was doing his duty. So I said, I I said, I can't take it. I said, I have to go. All right. We left. When we left, after we left, I came into my sense and said, I want to come again. I want to see more. She's all right. I will not go. Somebody else will be all done. I saw a few days later for the second time, the same procedure, which means the procedure was that I was warned about the date, I had several days, and I was not supposed to shame her, to be neglected, to take it as soon as possible, to melt it into the paysage of the environment. And the same thing was my second visit.

 (26:53)
Now, second visit, I forgot it. Landau, who was watching, and his job was that if there was to... We were supposed to follow him, streets which were easier to escape. There was danger. Canals, All right. And he had a knife. You went through the canal the second time, too? No. Regular. It was not difficult. In a bit, it was not difficult. Because in the ghetto was It was Jewish police. And in both cases, the guide had documents. Police was not allowed to enter the ghetto. So outside this. No danger at that time. Thousands of Jews could escape, which American public nowadays many Jews do not realize. The point was escape. And then who would. That was, yeah. He would say one sentence, Everybody would recognize his Jewish. Most Jews in Poland at home spoke it. You could recognize the answer. Yeah. Et cetera. Then helping a true death, administratively, executive. All population was involved about it. Where's Landau? Again, he reminded me that, apparently, some men approached me and said that I am tired. They would like to offer me a tea. And I agreed. We went to some apartment, and I saw this incredible hunting.

 (29:03)
As a rule, Hitlerjugend was not allowed to enter the ghetto, but individually, if they entered, yes, they would they left. Two boys. I showed from the window. Nice boys, good, good-looking. When they They were marching in the street, empty. Everybody, they ran. Seeing them. At a certain point, one of the boys were gone. And he shoot some broken glass. He was like, I don't know. Nothing. They walked in further. He just shut the window? He shut the window. Did he do any harm? I don't know, but he broke the window because it was... I heard it. A horrible. Now, in that apartment was a woman. So when I looked through the... The path? Yes. So I couldn't get out of the window, and I remember she put her hand on my arm and said, Oh, he came here to see what happens to us. Go, go, go, go, go, He was not a good for me. He was not a good for me. He was my guy,. I'm so terrible. In the war, so terrible. This was October, early October in Madrid. It was my last assignment, 1942. And then is the second meeting that takes place with those two Jewish leaders.

(31:17)
And then final again, always final. I used to jog during the... The divine was captured. The If the Jews condemn me, if I were to condemn you, he says, As you see, you said, no danger. We couldn't I'll try to organize for you another expedition, more dangerous. But we wouldn't expose you to manage your death. We believe it is possible to go to a camp. And he used death camp. Will you go? At that time, many people now ask me, How did I agree? So lightly. At that time, danger, death was a style of life. You didn't think about it. During the entire war, I was pushed around by people more intelligent than I, more powerful than I, both in Paris, in Warsaw, and then in London. Will you go? I will go. Then again, a meeting by the station in Warsaw, a train station. Some password, a fellow approached me. All this arranged before by Woźnicki. I didn't like him. The man, he looked Jewish too much. I was afraid of him. Jews people laugh at me that it is similar. To me, many Jews can be recognized, not by their nose, all these features, they have sedans.
 (33:33)
I don't know. I have this... Lermann has sedans, others. He was one of those characters. So he had already a ticket to the train. Before we entered the train, I told him, We will not sit together. He will sit in one wagon, I in another. I didn't want to hurt him. So I said, It will be better because if they arrest me, you will inform me people. And also if they arrest you, I will not run, et cetera. He agreed to this. I remember we left the train in Lublin. It was the way to Bełżec. Then partly walking because he had to walk. Or with the peasant carriages, going in the direction of Belges. And then we end up. There was a Old steel instrument, shopping, haberdash, simple men, simple peasant. I was already a uniform. Now, uniform was Ukrainian. In my book, which I wrote during the war, I say Estonia, who I Because at the time we wanted to establish friendly relations with the Ukraine, so we didn't want to hurt them publicly. So I said, Yes, Estonia. It was Ukrainian. There were two. Capguards uniform. Yes. Ukrainian Capguard's uniform. Yes. And the trousers and the boots.

(35:40)
After some two hours, a civilian comes. Again, change of password. Speaking beautiful Polish. It was no doubt he must have been Polish also, of general origin. Very matter of fact. They told me, he said that you want to see them in the camp. All right. I don't want to be mixed up in this. You will not engage in any activity. They told me, you just want to see how does it look? You will follow me. If somebody wants to talk to me, you will refer them to me. You don't speak Polish. I'm not no Polish. And I will handle the matter. Nothing happened. We entered to the gate. He was known by the way he was there. He approached the garden He was the sign we entered the camp. But he was not in uniform. He was a civilian? Yes, he was. He had some documents. Yeah. But the guard, I remember. They didn't even look. He knew him as a man. Evident. It was evident that he was assigned to some function. But he was German. He spoke to it. He spoke without any I mean- accent. Yeah. Beautiful. So my speculation is that in Poland, there was 800,000, 1,000, German.

 (37:26)
So probably he was one of them. He also told me, once we enter the camp, I will be on my own. He will detach himself. And I must be very careful not to speak to anybody, just to see. They told me, you want to see. We want to see, so we will see. We entered the ghetto, he separated himself. And then I saw him see which I described faithfully in my book, published during the war, thinking that it was Bełżec. Again, Inhuman. The right side of the camp, additional rail road, primitive rail road, it was not the main. Then the gates. Then train would move slowly. One on the filled up another, pushing the Jews to the train, shouting, fired. The Jews did go, but it was chaos, confusion of course. But there were moments that the wagon was over No, no room for other people. So the Jews, in that rain, defending themselves, didn't want to accept any more Jews. And besides so, the Germans, at a certain point, took a baby, a child from the mother and threw over the head of them. Like a piece of clothes over the Jews already in the train.

 (39:47)
Threw it into the train? Into the train. Because the Jews were kicking it. No more, no room. Everything was already filled. But still there was to the top room. They saw it. Reichsman train. This kind of a train is in Holocaust Museum here in Washington. But this train I have my doubts, which is in the museum. Because the train I saw, every wagon was Reichsman, Deutsche. And this one in the museum doesn't . But don't I can write it. Yeah, right. No, no, I know. I have my suspicious if it was original or not. Well, so I so called. And then at a sense, I looked. I approached as much as as this main gate to see everything. And then what I was doing, I don't know. But over the crowd of the Jews, he was shouting, folgen mir. You speak German? Follow me. Follow me, right? Follow them here. And look, he furious, going to the gate. Was this shouting? This is my guide. Your guide? This I could touch himself, but he was observing me. And then, so I follow him, and we approach the same gate, the guy with the guy, with a gesture, you may go And then he inside.

Speaker 1 (41:33)
I was stupid. I have no nerves. I endangered him, et cetera. I acted stupidly. What I was doing? I don't know. Was I crying? Was I shouting? I don't remember. But he was scolting me. You put me in danger. They told me that you are a strong man. We wanted just to see it. And your behavior was crazy. So you think you may have been crying? Yes, I don't know. I almost lost my conscience. At this moment, I started to vomit. When he was scolping you? Yeah. Then he took me to the same shop, and I realized, I will not go to Warsaw today. I realized, I So the owner gave me some vodka. There was a room in the back of the store. I spent the night over there in the morning. Again, the owner I was scotting domestic who was cleaning up and vomited. You vomited again in the store? Again in the blood because, how it was? The covers were blooded. So it was unpleasant. In the morning, the guy came. I went back to Warsaw without any incident. Nobody knew about it, because the rule was... This was with every leader I approached, that I was not supposed to speak about the mission in Poland, only abroad.

Speaker 1 (43:38)
So it was the same with the Jews. I didn't report to anybody. I didn't speak to anybody. Only when I reached London, I start with my activities. I saw terrible difference. Now it is difficult for normal We will probably to believe it. And I arrived to London, second part of November 1942. Now, at this point, I want to say something in defense of the Poles, because I know that the Polish government in London is criticized that they didn't do enough. Some 40 years after the end of the war, I was told that Martin Gilbert. You heard? Yes, I know. That he mentioned me in his book. I bought his book, Auschwitz and the Alliance. I have his book. Now, 35 years after the war, British Foreign Office opens a secret finance. So he got access to it because he was official biograph of Churchill. And then he dedicated It's an entire chapter to me. And the essence of what he wrote was on November 25th, the Poles, he doesn't say Polish Government Department, handed Karski's report, which means report from the- Microphone. Microphone, in a sense. To Mr. Istermann. Now, Mr. Istermann was a liaison between the world, the Jewish Congress and the foreign office in London.

Speaker 1 (45:52)
So the Jews had no representation of each other, to anything. There was no Israeli. Next, I say, November 26th, Easternman. I quote it with Gilbert, whom I met with person this morning. November 26th, Easternal, I accompanied by Silverman, who was representative of the Labor Party, Deputy of the Labor Party in the House of Commons, handed Karski's report to Sir Richard Law. Sir Richard Law was Deputy to England. I even forgot this conversation at the time with you. When I read it, then I remember, yes, to this. Sir Richard, Deputy of England, got it November 26. This is in the record. Why I mentioned? Eden, summoned me, at the beginning of February 1943. It means some two months after I recovered from fatigue in London. I was a great admirer of Eden, because before the war, he belonged together with Churchill, Nicholson, to those anti-effisment groups. Right. Against the Yastory, the Chaimberland, et cetera, Halibax, and others. Secondly, in 1936, in Geneva, where your father was also, I was attached to the Bureau International de Travail. He didn't pay the visit, and he played tennis, and I got a ticket, and And I saw him playing tennis.

Speaker 1 (48:01)
He was not a good player. I played better. But I never saw in my life a man having loss of gracious. And entering in, and I reminded him, sir. I get my view of my life. That was when I People I met both in London and then in Washington. I was warned and I was aware. You never knew how long they will keep you. They were the most powerful people I met. Four members of the British were coming. So I prepared myself some 13, 14 minutes. Hot I'm opening statements, which for hours in my apartment with the watch in my hand, I was practicing. When now they want me to have a lecture in the United States, I'm a train deep, they say 12 minutes, so it is 12 minutes. So which then was the same. Like a tape recorder situation, general situation, underground press, underground parliament, a delegate of the government, a military organization, a German methods of cruelty, et cetera. And then I come to the concern. I have also a message from the Jewish underground, which does exist in Warsaw. He then treated me very nicely. Of course, you didn't see him.

Speaker 1 (50:01)
He was very refined, beautiful language, beautiful man. By the way, good look. Very graciously, And then he says, When I started to sell, I have also a report from the Jewish leaders. I remember everywhere. Karski is an has already reached us. The matter will take its proper course, asking me many questions. None of them concerned the deadness. So he basically cuts you off. No, of course not. Many people approach, particularly from the Jewish quarters. And Karski and you, so you didn't say anything, you didn't do anything. They I don't realize. Particularly choose, they exaggerate my role during the war. Some of them call me General Karski now. Some of them call me Count Karski. During the world. I was a young man, completely unknown. You understand? I was one of hundreds of couriers from all European anti-Nazi underground movements. No, I was coming from Poland. In Poland, situation was delicate. There were two underground movements, and everybody from those officials knew about it. Communists, non-communists, and supported by the Kremlin, Communists underground. And I, evocation was, I was denouncing the communists, which was weakening me with some people, and there was no way out of it.

Speaker 1 (52:05)
What I want to say, that both in Washington, in London, and then in Washington, as a courier from the Polish underground, I am proud. I was credible, like a vision, arrest, torture, betrayed, et cetera. And then telegrams, so many telegrams, then virtuti militari from the Commander, Chief, et cetera. For the Jewish mission, enormity of the Jewish mission, definitely the Jews had no luck with it. I was too little, too insignificant. Somebody stronger, more powerful was needed, wiser than I. The Jews picked me up because I was on hand anyway. You understand, I was going anyway. And I don't hesitate to say it now. I had no leverage. I couldn't get it. Here in Washington, I don't want to mention the names The fellow decent honest Jew once reproaching me. And Karski, and you accepted it when he said that the report already received. I I couldn't tell him. Sir, don't interrupt me. You understand? I couldn't tell him. Sir, I didn't finish yet. And the same with other, those leaders. With those leaders, there was no discussion. I was answering the questions. Sometimes I didn't even come to the Jewish point, because they would dismiss me before.

Speaker 1 (53:58)
I was a little dogging. I was a tape reconder without any leverage with this people. Next. But probably there is also possibly that both Eden had better reputation among the both because of this, and the terrible for the Jews, because of his treatment of Perhaps he was honest and was saying the truth. Because my report was handed to Sir Richard Law, 26th of November, which means what? Two and a half months before. And probably Sir Richard Law didn't show him the report. So probably he was saying the truth, and was not as bad as many people now make out of him. There are many points which cannot be definitely judged and said. Who else did you see in England, and how was the response? Are you said four cabinet. Yes. Eden, first, Foreign Secretary. The second, Lord Cranborne. He represented the conservative Party in the War cabinet. During the war in the war in Poland. Ministries do not count. There emerge 11, 12, 13 men who commercate ministries, and they are called War cabinet, and they represent all the political parties. The laborer and conservator. Lord Cranborne was very friendly to the Jews. He was telling me that before the war, he was intervening on behalf of the Jews in Germany, They didn't help.

Speaker 1 (56:01)
He understood. Too many Jews, I draw attention to him because he's not mentioned in the Jewish history of the Holocaust. So it was the second, third. Arthur Greenwood representing Labor Party. I don't remember. Fourth, Hugh Dalton representing also the Labor Party. He was Minister for Economic Matters. He carried economic work with Dalton. Powerful man. Then he was not a member of the work cabinet. He was a minister, the M15 Lord Selborn. Lord? Selborn. Now, Lord Selborn took to me. He liked me. He was He even once proposed me that he understands that London is not so interesting. If I give him one response. I said, I get salary from the foreign government. He was very, very helpful. So for instance, and this also shows you the atmosphere. At a certain I speak about the Jews. It was the first conversation. I describe what I saw as I described to you. Then Lord Selborn, very matter of fact. He says, I want to tell you a story. It was Kwaśniewski, ...., for the British in London, Mr. Kwaśniewski. During the first World War, rumors spread all over Europe that German soldiers in Belgium liked to catch Belgian babies by their feet and crush their skulls against the walls.

Speaker 1 (58:20)
We knew that those rumors were not true, but we didn't do anything. We didn't deny them. They were good for the morale of our people. Mr. Kwaśniewski, you are doing the great work. Speak for yourself. Tell people. Try to reach editors, newspapers, book publications, et cetera. We stand behind you. So in other words, you didn't believe it. No. At that time, I understood. Of I don't know if it happened today, such an event, I'm almost 85. Yes, I would ask probably today, your Lordship, why did you tell me this story? At that time, I did not. It was not my job. My job was not to antagonize me. I didn't react them altogether. You understand my example? How could I hear your Lordship? Why did you tell me this story? Another. And he was a good man. In May 1943, all of this I have my earkeye there, you can show me. London was flooded with a pamphlet, The Faith of the Jews. In the pamphlet, there are three articles. One, Thomas Mann, who send it from California. Another, Alexei Tolstoj, who send it from Moscow, Kuybyshe, from the European Union, and the third, an underground worker.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03)
It was my article. Hundreds of thousands- This was your article, you wrote it based on what you saw? Yes. Now, hundreds of thousands of this. At that time, I had no doubt, serve on the finances. He was friendly to the end. But after the war, I realized that those people, particularly in London, who were in the establishment, most of them, first, the rich, educated in the best schools in the world, many of them are aristocrats. Probably many of them honest Honestly, did not make it. Honestly. Meaning, he's thinking that I was exaggerating out of hatred of the church, that it was a propaganda and in this way, I try to myself explain Selborn. He said, speak about it, et cetera, et cetera, but telling me before. I know it is propaganda, he was saying. The second example with him again, and it was Jewish tragedy. The tragedy of the Jews during the war was, as I see it now. They were totally helpless. They had no comfort. No representatives in the Inter-Allied War Council, no uniform army. And they had the reputation they didn't fight like sheep going to death, et cetera. The truth was there were thousands and thousands of Jews who were in the underground in Poland, Hungary, Romania, France, Belgium.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13)
But they were there as French, Belgian, Romanians or Poles, not as Jews. Because this would expose them to double danger. As a Jew, automatic death, and of course, the underground activities. My direct superior in Bureau, Bureau Information and Propaganda, Home Army, was certainly Jerzy Makowiecki. Beautiful, polish-educated man, not a sign of any Jewish accent. After the war, I learned he was of Jewish of. He was afraid of me. He didn't want me to know . He never told me. Then for a few months, he gave me an assignment because I knew English, to monitor BBC. So I had to see him every three, four days, because I had run to him. He never mentioned to me that he was a public opinion. Then after, no. So The world public opinion did not realize it. I did not realize it at that time. Next. To escape from the ghetto. Ghettos was not difficult. It was not difficult. As I mentioned before, a Jew would escape from the ghetto. And then what? Where would he go? Public knowledge, death, any help to a Jew, and accent, et cetera. All war so was in it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02)
All Poland was in it. The Jews were totally, totally helpless. And then, Their demands which I brought, and with those demands, I repeat, very often I had not even chance to spell them, talking to those great leaders, because I was I was telling their questions. I could not say, Sir, I want to speak now. Give me 10 minutes or something. But then both in London, and even more so in Washington, I had access, was called to literally dozens and dozens those managers of the intelligence, counterintelligence, psychological welfare, et cetera, et Et cetera. Now, all those people let me talk. They wanted to know. Moreover, they even asked me to evaluate if I knew something, their work, etc. With them, I was able to say everything. Because you were intelligent people both in London and here. In London and here. Here, Donovan person, I reported to him at the Polish Embassy. And now with these people, In many instances, they were frankly that those demands are counterproductive. For instance, they demand, let the Western ally make that public declaration that stopping the destruction of the Jews became a part of the war strategy. This is counterproductive.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55)
This is very risky. Making this a declaration mentioning only the Jews. Well, what the French will say? I remember one of them, older man, looking straight into my I said, Mr. Kwaśniewski, what your own people will say when they listen to such a declaration, they also suffer. This is an American? No, it was in London. And we don't mention the Poles. But more important, when the Russian people will say, more important, what Marshall Stalin will say when he learns from radio that we speak about the Jews, and we don't speak about the Russian people. At that time, the end of 1942 and 1943, there was no second front. The Red Army was the only false one, which again many people now forget and don't realize the pathos of this situation, and tremendous losses, and starting throwing millions of people. And then came February 1943, Stalin grand. And then three weeks later, Kursk, tremendous offensive. Stalin and the Red Army were saviors of humanity. So that demand about the Jews, those in London. This would be counterproductive. We will not recommend this a declaration to our Prime Minister. It was enough money, a sell problem. So I tell him, Your Lord, your money is...

Speaker 1 (01:07:57)
Maybe because I told you, I don't know if I should say it. As a matter of fact, I carried back to Poland a course, Max, but the this don't like the machine. Okay. Yes. So Martian's lot is good, the lads or the dollars. Isn't it? With the argument that those will give them. They care, but they are hungry themselves. He got agitated. I remember, no Prime Minister, no political leader, we don't. Of course, we could keep it secret during the war, but this kind of things always becomes ugly after the war. What our people will say when they learn that we were subsidizing Hitler with gold and hard currencies so he could buy raw materials from the neutral countries. Because this money, bribery, will go to employees of Auswertigesand or Gestapo. We will not do it. I remember. At that moment, I realized he liked me. But you're loathing. But we are getting a country currency meaning coma. These are different matters. You are part of the inter-allies arm the forces. You are fighting. You're hiders. The Jews had reputation. They can fight. They don't contribute in any way to the war. The Jews were doomed.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54)
I believe today, so many years after the war, we this kind of an alliance, with this kind of a situation, no Israel, et cetera. Really, nothing of importance could be done. The alliance, I speak with the alliance. What could they do? And then in Washington, your meetings with- Oh, Washington, I met many, many more people. You were there when, exactly? I arrived to Washington at the end of June, June, beginning of July 1943. Well, people whom I remember, Cordel Hans, Stimson, Secretary of War, Francis Bittle, Attorney General, then Church Chirac, Archbishop, Muni Spelman, Then Jewish leaders, Frankfurter, head of the World Jewish Congress, Goldman, his Deputy, Waldman, and head of the American Jewish Congress, Rabbi White. Yes, White? I can check. Yes, White. Rabbi White. And then, of course, Donovan at the University. The problem was at that time. With Donovan from the OSS? Yes. So You don't know, but perhaps you choose, you may publish. When I arrived in Paris with this microfinance, on my way to London. My understanding was, I was told in Poland, that the head of the Polish underground in France, Nazi occupied France, for military operation was responsible Alexander Kawałkowski. Before the war, he was high commissar in Gdansk.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25)
And I was assured in Warsaw that they would be able to smuggle me from Paris to London. So I arrived, and in my contact was with Kawałkowski, telling me this. He became angry. He said, I have no power to smuggle you to London. So I said, I have also the heat. This said, it will be no problem. Immediately, I can send it. I can tell him, to be the focus. I can send it immediately. But you will have to depend by land. So I got the document, and Paris, I remember to Lyon, from Lyon to Perpignan. Perpignan, I got a guy, a Spaniard, by the way, communist, who was told that I was a communist. To Barcelona, two men appeared. They gave exchange of passwords, and I didn't know who were they. Where are they? Where are they, America? Were they in the service of the Polish? No question I was allowed to ask. So they got me to Madrid, and then Madrid, Algeciras, and then motor boat, British Patrol, and then Gibraltar, it took some 21 days. So the film reached London two weeks before I reached home. And when I came the second part of November, Nikolajczyk already ready We got the film, we developed, enlarged, and already the film is being prepared in diplomatic form.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27)
So the posts were effective. They had good will only. What many people, particularly Jews, do not realize, and many Poles as well, the Poles had no power whatsoever. In their own eyes, they were significant. I was in London, I remember April, Stalin breaks relations with the Polish government. At that time, I was in touch with the most important people, the psychological work, counterintelligence, et cetera. I had access. I spoke to them. One Stalin broke the relations with the Polish government. The Polish government, one, became not much more than an embarrassing balance. Nobody knew what to do with those crazy problems. I didn't meet one Englishman who, not by courtesy, frankly, would not raise some doubts. Perhaps this time, Germans are saying the truth. It was not that they trusted Stalin. They had their doubts, and the same men would burst. Only Poland can be so stupid as you, Poland, you are. Antagonizing Stalin now, during this time, after Stalin, after Kursk. And now, he's telling to the world that you don't trust him. No, crazy. Only Poland's Council. Everybody is furious at the Polish government. That they dare to put in doubt this Stalin. At that time, Soviet Union, with all its power for practical purposes, meant literally, literally, one man.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34)
All powers were in the hands of Stalin. So at that time, to please Stalin, to convince him of sincerity, to bow, to promise him, et cetera, this meant lost or won the war. Such was Polish tragedy. Then in Washington, though, could you describe the being with Roosevelt and with Franz Luther? Roosevelt. Well, one of the first was Kordelhal. No, Kordelhal, he was from Tennessee. Evidently, a sick man. Evidently. Then, old sick man, speaking with some accent that I didn't understand what the old man under his nose was saying. At that time, my Polish accent was certainly worse even than it is now. And I'm sure that he didn't understand me. Completely, complete failure. The whole conversation, which lasted no more than 10, 15 minutes, et cetera. Second, Stimson, Secretary of War. Yes, he had received graciously Mr. Down, a matter of fact. Then they started He started conversation. He started conversation. He received information here that our military organizations engaged in partisan activities and military activities. He would appreciate very much if I describe with as many details as I am able to do. Any battle you had, or any activities, what kind, how do you fight, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32)
My answer, serve. I'm a political leader, not military. I did not take part involved in military activities. But we have here at the embassy, military. He is well-informed. If you someone take it, he will give you the information. Stimson. I'm very proud. I have a confidence. He was not interested in political blah, blah. He was interested in... He was Secretary of War, in military activities, and I couldn't give him any information on Frankfurter. Well, I spoke so many times about Frankfurter. I saw him twice. Once, first, only he came to the embassy. Everybody I was coming to the embassy. I was not allowed to stay at the hotel because I was supposed to go back to Poland on my fifth mission. So Frankurter came to the embassy. I remember him vividly, little insignificant man, pompous, only eyes penetrating. He betrayed intelligence. He was a personal friend with Czehanowski ambassador. So he came very pompously. Differently conflicting report of each. He understands that I know the situation in Poland. Please tell me, what is happening with the Jews of your country? Like a justice. I remember the same furniture as today at the couch, which is there, coffee table, and in front of us, a Frankfurter.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37)
On my left, Ciechanowski ambassador. So I understood. Before, Ciechanowski told me they were personal friends. So I knew this man, don't even ask me. Poland, the tragedy, heroism, et cetera. I did not even mention Poland, underground, et cetera. Only the Jews. My conversation, the ghetto, Warsaw, et cetera. You told them what you saw. Yeah, he interrupted me a few times. Technical questions. Some I remember, how high is the wall in the Warsaw ghetto? I didn't think about it. I have over 6 feet, as far as I remember. How did I enter? So I try to describe to him. And then what I saw. And then I go No, at that time still, I thought to the concentration camp, to Bełżec. Who would I saw. Again, interrupting me more and more seldom. Listen, listen. And then after I said, I'm 15 minutes, 20 minutes, I had nothing else to say. Embarrassment. The men does not react. So I stopped. And then I will never forget. From this moment, I remember every gesture he made, the tone of his voice. He's in front of us. He gets from his chair and starts to walk in front Out of us, from walk to walk with hands back.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34)
Facing back. Yeah, facing. So I look at Czhanowski. He's on my left. And when he turned his back, Czhanowski made this don't interrupt. And then, Frankurter takes his seat. And now I remember, everywhere, Mr. Karski. He was pompous. A man like me talking to a man like you must be totally wrong. So I say, I am unable to believe what you told me. So Czehanowski, Bertin, Félix, you don't mean it. You cannot tell him to his face that he's lying. The authority of my government is with him, Frank Peter. Mr. Ambassador, I did not say that this young man is lying. I said that I am unable to believe what he told me, and extending his arms in my direction this way. No, no. Enbarrassment And he got down.. Then I saw him second time with folks, Jewish leader, Cohen, who later became Supreme Court of Justice. But at that time, he kept himself under control. So Frank was there. When he left, the ambassador Sourouk was accompanying him and the returns to the Saloon. So I asked him, Mr. Ambassador, was it serious that he could not believe, or was it a committee?

Speaker 1 (01:24:44)
He was playing. Ciehannes joining, I don't know. But you are telling me incredible things. Because I never had opportunity to tell him with such details as I told you. You are telling incredible things. So that was good. He has a bad name, Emmanuel Frankfurt. I am not so sure because I spoke to him more or less some two weeks before Roosevelt summoned me to the White House. Now, everybody in Washington knew that he was a personal friend with Roosevelt. Who knows? If he didn't call the President, there is an interesting fellow, Mr. President, is where he went to see him, to such a day. But I don't know. And then how did this meeting with Roosevelt go? It was July 28. I stayed at the embassy. We have breakfast with the ambassador. A messager comes from the White House, I remember, gives him an envelope, opens, and there is the President of the United States, expects Polish ambassador, half past twelve, with his men. With his men? Yes, so he left. We had two hours or something in Chicanoski. Now we get to the terrace. Bias, short as possible.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32)
You don't know. You are going to meet not only the most important man, but the busiest man in the world. I don't know how much time he will give you. Is it only But I see all that. Some serious conversation. You talk too much anyway. So control yourself. Be presize. Answer his question, et cetera. Insisting. He wanted very bad And certainly this conversation to be effective. Now, at that time, as of today, Roosevelt always was my hero. Today, he's my hero. He was the greatest President America ever had. He was American President, not Polish, or Estonian, or Jewish. That is the problem. So I venerated him. I entered his cabin, I faced the Lord of Humanity. Czeganowski, for years, was joking that when Roosevelt gave me his hand, that I bowed. I was afraid that you break the desk with your hand. When he finished, then gave me hand. I reached the door walking. Czeganowski, I gave it. You're crazy. He's not a king. Americans don't do it. He's a public servant. He's on his salary. I make that fool, Mr. Ambassador. He says, No, he loved it. I know he loved it. So Roosevelt, he kept me 1 hour, 20 minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14)
But again, I never knew when he will give me the hand. No sign of any illness, the fact that he was crippled. Power, Majesty, his beautiful face. His self-assurance, his beautiful English, his gestures. He had long a cigarette, and this long cigarette was on a cigarette holder. Also long, holding. Smoking continuously. Well, at a certain point, I did squeeze. So again, with him questions, I was answering questions. I made some statement at the beginning, very short, because I was afraid that he will thank me and dismiss me. At a certain point, I was, which, by the way, if you want more details, Ciechanoski published the book, 1948, Defeating in victory. Yes, I heard. And on 14 pages, he describes my conversation with Roosevelt. So at a certain point, I was able to squeeze that Mr. President, distinction has to be made. The Germans, they persecut my people. They And I asked education for slavery concentration comes. They want to make of my people a nation of slaves. With the Jews, it is different. They want to exterminate them physically. Yes. And Chicanoski quotes in his book. And what was his reaction? You realize, 50 years past of this time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19)
Elis Borowski, the head of the World Yad Vashem, maintains that from his just said President Roosevelt asked me the question that he understands that the Germans take horses from the Polish peasants. The Polish peasants have no trucks. How do they manage? How do they manage? No tractors. No tractors. How do they manage? I don't remember. He said, which that was the conversation. So Roosevelt clearly did not make any comment. I'll try. He just changed the subject? Question, questions, all kinds. But questions about the Jews? No, not a single question about that. He just change the subject and just continue with all the questions. I squeeze this other questions? I I think that this distinction has to be made. Yes, then I tried. At that time, I did realize that he doesn't want to speak about this subject. So I wanted somehow to squeeze him because when then after 1 hour, 20 minutes, twice the secretary entering the Mr. President, people are waiting. So then when he gives me his hand, I got up and I said, I remember this Mr. President, I'm going back to Poland. And people will know that I was received by the President of the United States.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21)
Everybody will ask me, What President Roosevelt told you? Mr. President, what am I told Tell them. And now I remember, word by word, you will tell the leaders that we shall win this war. Here's a desire, war. You see that? You will tell them that the guilty ones will be punished for their crimes. Justice, freedom, shall prevent. You will tell your nation that they have a friend in this house. He said, I will be bound and reach the door walking back. And then, Czehanowski, crying, choking, crazy. This is America. Americans don't behave this way. But he was asking questions about things. Was he asking things about the Polish underground, the Russians? What was this main- Oh, yes, about the Russians, do we have any cooperation. At a certain point, I said that we cannot trust the Mr. President because there were incidents that the conference would take place. So our representative would be observed by our people before and after the conference. And we always find out that after the conference, our representative is also followed by some unknowment. They want our address. They want our We are afraid. It is very risky. We are not sure whether they don't even denounce us to the Gestapo.

Speaker 1 (01:34:38)
So his answer was, Uncle Joe is playing a dirty game, that's all. He told me. Oh, yes, he told me. He was interested in politics. You will tell your leaders that Polish boundaries This will be changed on the east on behalf of the Soviet Union, National Stalin, wants it. And I am going to help him to save his face. I believe he will not want too much. You will get a recompensation in the north and in the west. So that time, Chirałowski, who was again in the corner, an experienced diplomat. Mr. President, it is our understanding that East Russia will be adapted to Poland. As I said, in the north and in the west. We didn't know why he made this statement. Months after the war, we found out. At that time, July 20th, 1943, already, Church in Roosevelt, Stalin agreed, South of Kainsberg to Poland, North Soviet base. So he didn't want to use. Rooswelt was a great man, great state. He said, Okay. Now they made out of him sick man. Okay.