Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 9)

- Mr. President, before having left Poland, I was charged with this mission by the most important Jewish leaders. They organized for me two visits in the ghetto. I saw extermination camp. The name is Bełżec B-E-Ł-Ż-E-C. Mr. President, the situation is horrible. The point is, without the outside help, the Jews will perish in Poland. I remember every second of this conversation. The Allied Nations-

- Excuse me. What did he answer specifically?

- Nothing. He enters the picture now. Nothing.

- This was the end of your report?

- Yes.

- It came at the end, the Jewish-

- I never had a chance. So now his answer. 'The Allied Nations are going to win this war. No more wars. Justice will be done. Your country will be alive again more prosperous than before. Criminals will be punished. The United States will not abandon your country'. As a matter of fact, now he says, 'Poland as recompensation will receive East Prussia or a part of East Russia. No more corridor'. And now to the ambassador 'Mr. Ambassador, what do you think about it?' Of course, Mr. Ambassador loves it, only he wants all of East Rusia, not part of East Russia. Short conversation over there. Then 'when you return to Poland, you will tell your Polish leaders. This country will never fail them. They have a friend in the President of the United States'. And now he does ask me questions. Oh, yes, underground movement. Do you know what question he asked me? 'Do I understand correctly young men, that before the war, Poland was essentially an agricultural country'. 'Yes, Mr. President, it was so'. 'Well, now what we understand in the Russian campaign, the Germans had to use tremendous amount of horses. Did they take those horses from Poland? Because with your agricultural economy, you need horses'. Mr. President, Yes. He asked me other questions. I had no chance except my initial statement to I tell you, 'Mr. President, listen to me'. Well, you don't speak to the President of the United States. No Jewish problem was mentioned until the end of the conversation, which lasted 1 hour 20 minutes.

- Excuse me to insist, but it is my tema, about the Jews, did he ask specific questions?

- No.

- No one?

- No, not a single one.

- Not a single?

- Not a single. What I said, I said only on my initiative as an opening statement when he asked me, I presume you want to pass certain information. Bring attention.

- You gave every saying on the Jews at the end.

- General terms, I saw the-

- He didn't ask one specific question.

- Not a single.

- How do you explain this?

- I don't... He did make a gesture now. What was the significance of this gesture? Was it a gesture or was it an expression of goodwill of the center of power who does not deal with particular problems? I don't know until today. Wiser people than I could not decipher FDR. He was a great man, mainly. After we left the White House. Then, of course, as you can imagine, we return to the embassy and the ambassador gives me one typist. He goes to another room, another typist, and his instructions. 'Now, you write your report, I write my report. Johnny, be careful. Everything counted. If you noticed his smile, put it in the report. We just saw the center of power of humanity. And then we will compare our both report. I have to send a report to London, of course'. So we cooked up whatever it was. Then comes the problem. I think it was next day, very soon. It might be even the same evening as a matter of fact. He sees me, the ambassador, and says 'Well, Johnny, now, I got from the White House a message. Apparently, the President would like you to see the following individuals, and he wants you to pass to them all your reports'. Now, on that list, it was a long list, some individuals, for instance. Oh, yes, there was a Rabbi Weiss, whom I saw already, by the way. Goldman, Waldmann, I remember. As a matter of fact, a certain Jesuit priest, Father Walsh-

There was a Supreme Court, Justice.

- Yes. Justice. It's Frankfurter. I saw him on the recommendation of President Roosevelt. There were names. Secretary of War, Stimson was, Secretary of State, Cordell Hull. Archbishop Spelman, Archbishop Muni, Archbishop Stritch, Apostolic Delegate Cicconiani.

- The Delegate from the Pope?

- Apostolic delegate from the Pope. Now, I interpreted this and the ambassador that the President was interested in the Jewish problem. Only on his level, the problem was not of direct, so to say, his jurisdiction. He sent me to the people whom he considered actually could take some action knowing that I was sent to them on his recommendation. It might have been also-

- Did you feel yourself the tragic discrepancy between the demands and the expectations, hopeless expectations of the people in Warschau, I mean, the Jews, that you made on this result, this visit, because there is no communication.

- I understand. History past, 35 years passed, so I understand your film, your archives, Archives. After my audience with President Roosevelt, I was so overwhelmed by this fact. I reported to the President of the United United States. I didn't think about anything else. I was totally overwhelmed by him. Years past, and of course, now I think about it, what was the significance. And I don't have the answer. Perhaps he wanted, expected others to do. Perhaps they did do things. None of the Allied leaders on the level as I met them would tell me what he was going to do, you understand? This I don't know. Perhaps if I want to be skeptical or cynical, perhaps he passed the back. Perhaps it was an act of courtesy towards the Polish ambassador. 'I am doing something within your men's mission'. I don't know. A few days later, the Ambassador tells me 'Johnny, now you are going to see Justice Frankfurter. He will come here'.

- Justice Frankfurter, he means he was a member of the-

- Of the Supreme Court. Now, again, he gave me his briefing.

- He will come here, he said.

- He will come here. As a matter of fact, except cabinet members, usually people came to the embassy. I lived in the embassy. So he will come here. Now, he gave me his briefing. 'Now, Johnny, again, be careful. He always would brief me. Now, all knowledgeable people consider this man the most brilliant man in the administration. As a justice of the Supreme Court, The institution is very important. But next, for years, he's a confident of the President. All American knows about it'.

- And he was a Jew.

- Now, he says 'Johnny, now he's a Jew. Be sure he will be interested in your report'. All right, so I wait again carefully. On the appointed hour, as a matter of fact, I even remember it was between breakfast and lunch, before lunch in the morning hours. On time, I was sitting in the living room, salon. Ambassador comes from the first floor with Justice Frankfurter. Justice, Frankfurter, a little man. He did emanate some brilliance, very alive, his eyes. Unimpressive physically. A little man, Jewish-looking, very friendly. Friendly smile, towards me all the time friendly. Several times he called me young man during our conversation. Well, I introduced myself. We sat down. He in front of me, Ciechanowski on my left. Justice Frankfurter, starts "Mr. Karski. I have been invited, by my very good friend, your ambassador, to come here to see. I was also advised that I should see you. Apparently, you have some information which I should know. What do you have to say?' My answer. 'Sir, I don't know what you are interested in. Could you ask me some questions? It will be easier on me'. Frankfurter 'Young men, do you know that I am a Jew?'

'Yes, sir. Mr. Ambassador told me about this'. 'Well, tell me about the Jews. We have here many reports. What happens to the Jews in your country?' Now, I become a machine, again. I give my stuff. The man sits. I remember, he looked like smaller and smaller. Somehow like curbing, looking at the floor. But he listens. He doesn't interrupt me. I report, as you know from this film, usually it lasted 15, 20 minutes. I tell him, Jewish leaders, ghetto, Bełżec. Well, it was 15, 20 minutes past and I stop. Justice Frankfurter, he sits. Looks at me still at this moment and tells me the follow 'Young men, as I mentioned, I have been informed about your activities. I was told that you came out of hell, and I was told that you are going back to hell. I admiration for people like you. And now, young men I am no longer young. I am a judge of men. Men like me with a man like you must be totally honest. I am telling you, I do not believe you'. Ciechanowski breaks in 'Felix, what are you talking about? Well, you know about him. He comes, so the President, he was checked, rechecked 10 times in England, here. Felix, he's not lying'. Frankfurt, still walking. 'Mr. Ambassador, formally I did not say that he is lying. I said that I don't believe him. These are different things And my mind, my heart, they are made in such a way that I cannot accept it. No, no, no. I murmured something that is a shock to me'. He's the beginner amenity. Eventually, he did ask me friendly, few friendly question.

- He didn't tell you, I know human soul, I know what's-

- Yes, 'I am a judge of men. I know humanity. I know men. Impossible. No. No. No. No. Was he sincere?

- It's my question. What is the meaning of-

- Was it an act? Theatrical act. What could I do? How do you argue with Justice Frankfurter? Ciechanowski tells me he's a powerful man as a matter of fact.

- But he was even a key figure in the Jewish community.

- As a matter of fact, when he asked me 'Mr. Karski, do you know who I am?' Then I said 'Yes, sir. You are Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. Then I cracked a little my ambassador also told me that you are a very important man'. I remember this, Justice Frakfurter looks at Ciechanowski, then he introduces himself.

- What is the meaning of this now, according to you? 'I don't believe you'. What didn't he believe?

- Yes, I think he believed me, of course. I have no doubt he did his best, whatever he could have done. He took it for granted I was going back to Poland. Probably he wanted to show me, yes, that the world is unprepared. This is an unprecedented problem. This is a horrible problem. Probably he wanted to impress upon me.

- Did he ask you specific questions like Zygielbojm or not?

- No, he didn't come to Zygielbojm.

- No, I'm not talking about Zygielbojm. If like Zygielbojm, he asked specific questions.

- On a certain day, I received instructions 'You are going to see Lord Selborn'. The instructions, all of them coming from the Prime Minister's office. Who is Lord Selborn? The public opinion does not know about it, of course. He is in charge of the British government of the European underground movement.

- Member of the war office.

- Of the War office, it was called, yes. Organizational problems, communications, radio, financing on behalf of the British government belong to this. The instruction is where it is worthwhile to see him to report. He may be helpful in every respect. He's an operational officer. I go to see Lord Selborne. Old man, old man at that time already. Well, typically English aristocrat, of course, so discipline, precise, friendly, correct, receiving me as he should.

- Well, your report. I say your report.

- My report. He was essentially interested in the operations of the Polish underground movement. Diversion, sabotage, what is my evaluation? What do we need? Does cooperation with the British officer? Does it work correctly? I come to the Jewish problem. 'And your Lordship, well I have also a mission on behalf of the Jews. I visited twice Ghetto, I visited camp in Bełżec. Would your Lordship like to tell me, please'. Yes, I more or less told him the whole story. Then, a certain point, I finish. Lord Selborne, with typical English correctness, benevolence, tolerance, rationality answers 'Mr. Karski, during the first World War, we were propagandizing that the German soldiers were crushing the heads of the Belgian babies against the walls. I think we were doing good job. We had to weaken German morale. We had to arouse hostility towards Germany. The war was a very bloody war. We knew it was untrue. Speak about your problem, your report. Try to arouse the public opinion. I want you to know you do contribute to the Allied cause. We want this report. Your mission is very important. Which means clearly telling me, Mr. Karski, you know and I know it ain't so'.

- It's not true.

- It's not true.

- But it's good for the propaganda.

- Yes, it's speakable.

- Same problem as you in first World War.

Yeah.

I understand that you conveyed the request of the Jewish leaders to all the people you met in England and in the United States.

- Yes.

- Without entering the details of each one, of the answers of each one, what is your general appreciation of their answers? Your evaluation, were they interested or was it considered by them as a minor affair?

- I understand. Yes. The Allied government leaders, British and Americans did not show interest in details, did not ask me questions to elaborate on my generalities, horrible, unprecedented. I saw it, et cetera. Next. People I met, were actually the key people in the British and American government. Evidently for them, altogether, Polish problem was not an essential problem. Now, within Polish problem, a young agent coming from Poland reporting on the Jews. The Jews had no country of their own. They were not members of the Allied Council.

- Excuse me, do you think that you succeeded in your report, in the way you reported yourself? Do you think that you succeeded to convey the most essential fact that it was extinction, the extermination of a whole people?

- Yes. In most cases, in no more detailed the way, as you stated yourself at this moment. In most cases, I had no opportunity to enter into more details.

- Why? Because you had no time?

- Because they didn't ask me. How do you tell Eden, Roosevelt, Stimson, Cordell Hull, 'I want you to listen to me. I want you to give you detales'.

- But for instance, to a man like Eden, did you have the opportunity to describe the death camp of Bełżec and the story of the train with the quick climb?

- No.

- Did you do this?

- None whatsoever.

- Impossible.

- Impossible. I was counting, of course, every minute. Dr. Retinger, you know  he was sort of a chief of staff of General Sikorski, was with me. Again, I was briefed by him. I don't know how much time Eden will give you. We had to work very hard that he altogether receives you. All right. The essentials, the essentials. Now, I did this state to Eden. Again, I was in the ghetto twice. I was in Bełżec. In general terms, horrible, total helplessness. They are perishing without the outside help. They will perish all of them. This is what the Jewish leaders asked me to say, and this is what is my conviction. 'Mr. Karski, do I understand correctly that your report on this matter you pass to the Polish government?' 'Yes, sir.' 'I presume the Polish government will inform his Majesty's government on this subject. His Majesty's government will take proper action'.

- This was the answer?

- This was the answer.

- And Cordell Hull, Secretary of State of the United States?

- Cordell Hull. Total, total lack of interest altogether.

- How did this lack of interest was shown?

- My original statement, the same. Bełżec, ghetto, two, three minutes, most general terms. The conversation was switched. Again, Poland. 'Does the government control your underground, by the way? Does the government have support? What do you expect from the American government? You realize Why is we have the problem with the Soviet Union? Are your leaders aware?' Territorial questions. How do you tell Cordell Hull? 'Sir, stop. I want to talk'. You understand?

- I do. On the Delegate of the Pope, Cicognani.

- Very friendly. Treating me, calling me.

- Pardon.