Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 8)

- Professor Karski you know that the subject of this film is the destruction of the European Jews, the Holocaust. I would like to know, among all the official political leaders to whom you delivered your report, did you have the chance to mention specifically the Jewish problem? This destruction of the Jews. I assume that you had a lot of other things to report to them. But because the subject of this film is the one I just named now, I would like to know what were the possibilities for you to talk about this and who was interested, how they were interested, how they reacted.

- I understand. The subject of this film you are making is you hope it will be shown eventually. Probably the second part. You want to have testimonies, interviews for historical records, for some archives. I understand. I must be very precise. Now I am asking you to bear with me and to understand my possibilities and my mission in the so-called Western Free World, dealing with the Polish government leaders, political leaders, Polish Jewish leaders. Because of the nature of my mission, I traveled, as you know, several times because within the statute of my mission was I was going back to Poland. I was a very important man. I was a hero. Everything was at my disposal. I met the most important men. They catered to me. I could, to whomever I spoke, I could tell them I didn't finish. I have more to say. On many occasions, I had such a situation with the General Sikorski, whom I saw at least five times. General, I didn't finish yet. He would say, Lieutenant, my secretary will inform you when I will be free for you. With the Polish side of my mission, I had great possibilities to report, and I did report.

Now, you are asking the second part of my report. We have to make a distinction with the English or American certain political leaders, like Jewish leaders. Oh, yes, they listen to me. They let me report. With the those great intellectual leaders, poets, writers, et cetera. Well, frankly, I felt free. I would, so to say, press myself. Still, there is more still I want you to know more. H. G. Welles, Kessler, this people. Now, speaking about government leaders in Great Britain and the United States. I met all of them as a result of the Polish government, usually Prime Minister request, Mr. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, I wish that you receive a most recent agent President from Poland who has material of interest to His Majesty government. I don't remember where did we-

- You said that I met all of them as a result of the Polish government's Prime Minister request.

- Now, even at that time, I had suspicions, having met some of those leaders and whomever I met, I speak only about government leaders. They were the most important people, both in the United States and in Great Britain. Sometimes I couldn't avoid the suspicion. Altogether, they show me as a matter of courtesy.

- As a matter of?

- Of courtesy. In London, Prime Minister ask them to see some recently arrived the agent from the Polish underground, and his report might be of interest to his Majesty government or to that particular minister or a government leader. In the United States, it was the ambassador, of course. Everything was in his hands. Now, you must realize at that time, I was not allowed to have any contacts. I had to report to the proper offices, every man I met. I was free to go to a theater, to a nightclub, to dinner. I had plenty of money, of course, to buy myself new clothes whatsoever. I could not have contacts on my own initiative, only as instructed. You are going to see such and such a leader. The same in the United States. Of course, I lived in the embassy. I was not allowed to take any hotel. I lived all the time on the premises.

- How did it happen with Roosevelt?

- With President Roosevelt. Well, Polish ambassador in Washington was informed about my existence in London. Before coming to London, I didn't expect to go to the United States. Now, it was the Polish ambassador who in his reports to the Prime Minister suggested he thinks that it may be useful if before returning to Poland. Karski will come secretly to the United States. The ambassador is pretty sure he will get him in touch with the key members of the government and the proper people. He hopes the President himself will be interested in his report. Once we received this report, General Sikorski tells me 'Lieutenant, you go to Washington before you go to Poland'. I arrived to Washington. Ambassador Ciechanowski already totally acquainted with my material. I stay at the embassy, as you can imagine. Every morning, every evening, we talk about what happened in Poland. The most, by the way, intimate talks were when there was a ritual in the evening, after dinner, before going to bed, the ambassador would walk his dog, Kruczek. I would walk the ambassador. He always invited me 'Johnny, come with me'. Then we would again, most intimate, even Madame Ciechanowska. She may see this film.

She lives now in Belgium. Even she was not present. Then there's some time, his worries and his fears and all this. At a certain point, he tells me 'Johnny, listen, the President of the United States wishes to see you'. Now, he briefs me. As a matter of fact, all the time, he was criticizing me on one point, mainly 'Johnny, you are inclined. You talk too much. You must acquire precision. You have precision to be concise. You realize people I am going to introduce you, they are the most powerful people. Poland is minor concern for them. They have the whole war. They wage this war. Be careful, concise, precision. Concentrate rather on their questions. Try to answer the question'. President comes. He gives me the same briefing. Now 'you be careful. You are going to see the most powerful men on this globe. This man, evidently, is busy. He thinks in terms of the war, of humanity'. Roosevelt had this inclination mission which ambassador Ciechanowski instructed me. 'We have a President. He thinks after this war, the human race will be organized in such a way, no more wars, and he will play the key role in this arrangement'.

'Again, be brief, be concise. I am not going to take part in the conversation. I will go with you as required by diplomatic protocol. I have to certify your veracity, introduce you to the President. Then I will sit quiet. So don't rely on me. I will be unable to help you in any way. It may be that the President will ask me a question, then I will answer his question. So I don't know how the conversation will develop. I don't know how long you will stay with the President. Only you are on your own and now be wise. With this kind of briefing, limousine, of course, whatsoever, brings us to the White House. Ambassador, punctual. President, punctual. Secretary leads me to his office. I see Roosevelt. He looked like a world leader.

- Like a world leader?

- World leader, yes. As a matter of fact, he struck me. He was more than the President of the United States. His formulations, his gestures, he did consider himself a world leader. He sits behind his desk. Behind him, of course, all American flags. Very impressive, the whole wall covered by them. Very high chair, grand seigneur. Because I was warned, he will not get up when he would shake your hand. He's crippled. He shakes hand. Please sit down, Mr. Ambassador. He says 'Mr. Karski, I know about you. I have been informed about your great work contribution to the Allied cause. I am sure that you would like me to be informed about things in Poland, please'. Now, you see, I realized as I had it throughout my entire mission. For me, the Jewish problem was not the only problem. For me, the key problem was Poland. Curzon line, Soviet demands, Communists in the Underground Movement, fear of the Polish nation, what is going to happen to Poland. This was the emphasis.

- Of your mission?

- Yes, my mission, of course, and my concern, naturally. I speak to the President in those terms, expectations, fears among the leaders. All hope, Mr. President, has been placed by the Polish nations in the hands of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

- You said this? In proper words?

- Oh, yes. In the same words. Not the present. Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He sits. I describe thinking how much time I have. He sits. Then I come to the Jewish problem. Mr. President, I have also a mission on behalf of the Polish Jews.