Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 7)

- At a certain point he sits behind the table as a matter of fact, it was. I am on the other side of the table, sitting as well. He is in front of me. And then, like with hatred, frustration, after I gave him all the material. Then he says 'So what can I do? So what can I do? What I am not doing? I do everything. I did everything what is possible. So what they want me to do? What can I do?' So then I also in half anger at that time. Then I gave it to him. I closed my eyes. 'Jews are dying. There will be no Jews. What is use having Jewish leaders? Let the Jews go to the most important offices. Allied offices. Let them demand. If they are refused, let them go out. Let them stay outside. Let them refuse drinks. Let them refuse food. Let them die. Let them die. Slow death. Let humanity see it. Perhaps it will move humanity'. And then he jumps. 'Madness. Madness. They are mad. They are mad. The whole world is mad. The madness. Madness. They are crazy. They don't understand anything. They will not let me die. They will send to policemen. They will arrest me. They will take me to an asylum. They will feed me artificially. This is madness. Madness. They are mad. Everybody is mad. So I have to do something. But I don't know what. So what can I do? I have to do it, but I don't know what. So what to do? Basic madness. Madness. This is a mad world. I have to do. I don't know what to do. So what do I do?' I was sitting there. Then he sat down. Then he began somehow more rational, as if more friendly. Yes. Then he did begin to ask me questions. How am I doing? Is it very difficult? Personal questions. He knew about my previous missions. Is it difficult on me? Rather more friendly. Then I left him.

- Do you think that then that he was already in complete desperation?

- No. This is the point. For a moment I did not have any doubt. He is not mad. He is totally normal. I did not detect any kind of what today we call psychiatric whatsoever. He was a leader. Only he was lost in helplessness.

- Helplessness.

- Helplessness. And apparently, with my now report, this showed up. He looked to me almost hateful towards everybody. The Polish government, the airlines, the wall. It was this total helplessness which he couldn't take apparently. He couldn't control himself. Then, of course I knew, everybody knew about Zygielbojm. He was a prominent leader. He was member of the council etc. He was a genuine leader, doing his best. Only in that particular conversation, somehow we didn't establish common grounds. He was the only man I reported.

- It was a long conversation.

- Yes, it must have been long. As a matter of fact, I was embarrassed he was keeping me. Then.

- He said 'I know everything'. And he was keeping you.

- After his break. So then again he said and started to ask me personal questions, you know, sympathetic, and then questions, you know, about Poland, about how Bund leader looked, how Zionist, they look undernourished, you know, those human questions. And then the conversation was long. What I don't mention, by the way, in my book, and it may sound cynical, remember at that time I was a machine. In the second part of my meeting I was thinking only about one thing. If he keeps me longer, I am going to be late for my next appointment. At that time all my life consisted from one contact to another, from one man to another, eating, sleeping, reporting if possible, coming on time to the meeting. All people I was reporting were very important people and I was an insignificant little man. My mission was important. So I kept myself under control. And perhaps it shows that at that time I was in a way morally corrupted because with my previous record, I took it, so to say, for granted. Whomever I saw, everybody was showing me respect or admiration, everybody was complimenting me. Zygielbojm, whatever I said a few minutes ago, it was like he didn't want to show it. He, like he, he was suspicious.

- And do you think that the demands you, you asked from him, the demands from the Jews in Poland have had a real influence on his suicide which he committed six months later? As a matter of fact, exactly six months.

- He committed suicide on May 11, 1943. This was just a few days after the Warsaw Ghetto totally destroyed as a result of the genuine Jewish declaration of war against Germany. Then only a few days later, he committed suicide. He left a letter. I have of course, the text of his letter, the letter addressed to the President of the Polish Republic. In this letter he reproached the Polish government, the allied government.

- Do you think that the request you made to him from the Jews in Poland had a direct influence on his suicide which he committed exactly six months later?

- I don't know, I prefer to think. No, what can I tell you? It is not a very comfortable idea to live with, as you mentioned and I mention in my book. Oh yes, I think about it, but I defend myself as much as I can. But I will tell you about Zygielbojm, of course I cannot escape it. Very often I have to think about what happened to the Jews during the Second World War. And it may be a result of still self discipline and still, still emotional self defense. In my memories. Even when I teach my classes and I have to touch the war situation in Eastern Europe. I don't go back to my memories of the Jewish Ghetto. I don't speak about it.

- You avoid it.

- I avoid it, when I teach or when I speak, when I discuss, when I think myself. As you can imagine, for years I had nightmares and I disciplined myself. The Jewish problem during the Second World War in my mind is the death of Zygielbojm. Death of Zygielbojm. This is what shows this total helplessness. Indifference of the world. Indifference of the world. And the Jews perishing and the Jews perished. And you have a Jewish leader. His name is Zygielbojm. And he says I am a leader. Jewish leader. There are no more Jews. I go with them. They don't need leaders. The death of Zygielbojm for me shows more than anything else Jewish tragedy of the Second World War. About him I speak. You forced me into this interview about on the ghetto, on Bełżec. I don't go there. When I have free will, I do go to Zygielbojm. I didn't have one single class in 20 years of teaching the course Governments and Politics of Eastern Europe. When I come to the war situation, I did not tell my students. There was Zygielbojm.

- Do you remember his last letter?

- Oh yes. The letter was friendly, as a matter of fact. Written in a rather matter of fact way. No violent recriminations, very measured style. It was addressed to the President of the Polish Republic, but also to the allied governments and the public opinion of the world. Stating what I said. The Jews perished. He will go with them. And then he hopes that perhaps his death will arouse the consciousness of the world. Oh, I know his letter. Then he finished the letter in a very humane way. 'Goodbye, friends. I wish you success. Goodbye. Signed, Shmuel Zygielbojm'. He took gas in his apartment.

- Yes. And this was after the end of the uprising.

- A few days after the end of the ghetto, the Jewish war against the Third Reich.