Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 4)

- Yes, it is the most... I mean, you are a unique witness because nobody was ever able to enter an extermination camp like Bełżec and to come back alive. And there are no survivors of Bełżec.

- There are or there are not?

- There are not.

- There are a lot of them?

- No, there are not. There are no survivors of the Bełżec extermination camp. 600,000 Jews perished in Bełżec in about eight months, and there are no survivors. It's not true what I say. There was one, two years ago he lived in Canada. He was 95 years old, and he was in Bełżec for four months. At the time you went to Bełżec, he was there. He escaped in November.

- Well, a few days later, the contact was arranged with some Jews whom I didn't know, of course. We took a train to Bełżec.

- From Warsaw?

- From Warsaw. It's rather a long trip. As far as I remember, four hours.

- Because Bełżec is 150 kilometers south from Lublin.

- Yes. Sobibór was north of Bełżec.

- Yes, absolutely.

- By the way, we'll enter the picture. We come to Bełżec. Of course, I didn't know what to expect. We went out of the station. First of all, over there, I went disguised a little mainly. They were using-

- Excuse me, I cut you. You had no idea of what you would see.

- No. Well, I knew. I heard about the Bełżec. What I heard by the way at that time, even from some Jewish people, that this is what was called at that time a transitional camp. What I understood after the war at that time, they were liquidating the camp as such. By November there was no longer camp. And now, however were the reasons, of course, I don't know. Apparently, the last shipment or the remnants of the Jews were taken out of Bełżec and either shifted to Sobibór, which became extermination camp, or Jews who were taken from the Warsaw or other ghettos, again for some reasons, they would be shifted to Bełżec for a short time and again go somewhere else.

- Yes, but at the beginning, Bełżec was settled to destroy to kill the Jews who were living around Bełżec, the Jews of Lvov, of all this area.

- Only my point...

- And not from the Warsaw Ghetto. The Warsaw Ghetto, the people were sent in Treblinka. Bełżec was made for the people of Krakau. The people of Krakau were sent to Bełżec.

- I was not even aware of those details at that time.

- Do you know too, that they called all these camps, transitional camps, Sobibor too and Treblinka too. It was the name they gave. This is not specific as a matter of fact.

Well, so over there I went...

- And then that started to be operational as a desk camp in March 1942?

- Yes. Only at the moment I visited it, it became apparently truly transitional, which means Jews were shifted somewhere. Now, the Germans announced that they are going to force labor, they are going to have good conditions.

- This is to the Jews.

- To the Jews, yes. To the Jews. The Germans always, if they could avoid the open trouble, they wanted to avoid it. So they wanted everything in as much order as, of course, humanly possible. Well, so then from the station, we walked to the camp. No difficulty whatsoever. I had documentation. My guide had...

- Can you explain this precisely? You were this guy.

- Yes. I was an Estonian militiaman.

- Because the camps were guarded by Ukrainians.

- Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Polish policemen, and the regular German Gestapo, SS men, et cetera.

- So Those were mercenaries of the German?

- Yes. Of course, at that time, which is understandable, the Germans, even for this work, they wanted to spare as much as their own manhood to send them, I imagine to fight or to work, not for this business. They were using the others.

- What was the color of your uniform?

- Yellow with some belt with boots, black cap, I remember. Undistinguishable otherwise. No sign that it was Estonian whatsoever. Documentation was that I was Estonian militiaman.

- Excuse me, the trip had been arranged by the Jewish underground?

- Yes, apparently.

- Or by the Polish underground?

- No, by the Jewish underground. All this part, as a matter of fact, I didn't talk too much to the Poles while still in Poland. They knew that I established contact with them. They might want to stop me, not to endanger me. Pauls learned about it. I think only from...

- Specifically on the behalf of the Jews.

- Yes. This was my Jewish chapter. I follow their instructions. By whom was it organized? I imagine by the Bund leader because he initiated this matter. But he was not there. Some unknown Jewish fellows whatsoever. Now, we walked and then we entered the camp. Now, this camp, totally different from the Warsaw Ghetto, mainly total confusion. Everything in movement.

- Excuse me, you say we walked - who? You and who?

- A Jewish guide, but a guide whom I didn't know who established contact with me.

- Yes, but you didn't walk in the camp with this Jew, no?

- What do you say?

- You didn't walk inside the camp with this Jew.

- Oh, yes.

- You're right that it was an Esthian-

- He had some sort of identification papers. Then I followed him, then he goes his way, I go his way. Only I was following him and he led me to some official and I just showed this. Of course, counting I am an Estonian. I don't speak bad German whatsoever. He went on some identification papers, whatever it was. I don't know, you then write whatever it is. He entered as a civilian. Only I was disguised. Then I entered the camp, both of us. Then I...

- Professor Karski, I must tell you that I understand very well how impossible it's what I am asking from you now, because I ask you to describe the indescribable. This means to describe... what was a death camp. I just want you to know that I know how difficult it is.

- I understand. We enter the camp. As a matter of fact, that camp, at the point I entered it, had no wall, wire was around it.

- Barbed wires?

- Barbed wires. Were there walls in other parts, of course, I don't know. I spent in that camp probably no more than 20-25 minutes. Again, I couldn't take it, frankly. Now, the difference between this camp and the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw was that here, some sort of total confusion. Mainly, the Jews, the population of it, they were going somewhere. Now,  from as I saw it at that time. From the station rail road, as I understood, there was some rail leading to the camp, rather primitively build, I could recognize it with some a platform. Then that train, which consisted some 40 cattle tracks.

- Cattle cars?

- Yes. The train facing the camp would move two or three cars and stop again. At that time, from that gate, I was standing and observing now militiamen, Gestapo Germans, 'Jude raus, Jude raus', they directing them to the tracks.

- Excuse me, but before you had to cross the camp, before arriving to this place where-

- Yes, I saw it from the camp.

- Where you were able to see the loading of...

- The Loading of that primitive rail.

- Yes, but before this, you crossed the camp. Can you describe how you crossed it, what you saw at the time when you crossed-

- I didn't go very deep in the camp. Because the guide, apparently, and the Estonian, they apparently wanted to show me this scene. The train was facing that particular gate. We entered the gate and then we stayed there, observing what is happening.

- How long was it between the moment you entered the camp, you entered from another gate, and the moment you arrived at this point? It was a big camp or it was-

- I entered through the same gate.

- You entered through the same gate.

- Through the same gate. I did not wander in the camp. I did not go deep in the camp. From the Bełżec camp, my recollection was the shipment of the Jews from the camp to the tracks in the train. And then the second thing, again, I couldn't take it. Over there, I went physically sick.

- But why? Can you say why it was impossible to take it? I mean, the people were waiting here since-

- In this chaos, in this confusion, those shouts,  'Jude raus, raus', pushing them through the platform to the tracks. Then the plane would move two tracks away, putting them there. Now, the room in the one track. I know it was for horses, I think, 16 horses.

- On 40 men?

- Yes, military track. Well, at least 100, 130.

- Excuse me, the people who were loaded in the freight cars, according to you, they were waiting inside the camp since a long time?

- No, in the camp, from the camp. From the camp-

- No, please. I ask you one precise question. These people, these Jews, they were waiting inside the camp since a long time, how many days, how many hours?

What only I saw total confusion, which means they did not look like inhabitants. They looked and I interpreted it as some sort of transitional camp. They brought Jews from somewhere and they are taking them somewhere. It did not look to me as inhabital regular. At this point, I was standing camp. It was total confusion. Shipment of the Jews to the trains. Now, what I understood at that time, well, what are they taking them? Again, they were apparently telling the Jews, they take them for forced labor. Now, it's horrible, horrible scene. Those shouts, despair, mother dragging their children. They enter the track. They cannot reach it. They are too weak.

- They were pushed?

- Gestapo, militia.

- They were forced?

- Beating them, pushing them like pigs, like not human into this. More and more to the camp.

- They were shooting with guns?

- Yeah, yes, to terrorize them, but in the air, mostly. Total hell, total hell. And now comes the story. The train moved a little by two tracks, three tracks. On the floor, there is a white, whitish powder. And now, I asked the Estonian militiamen, what is it? He says, That's all right. This is for their hygiene. This is quick lime. When they die, there is no problem. They will not contaminate the Earth, the Earth whatsoever. Then, well, they are getting what? They are getting-

- They are getting what?

- They are getting what? They are getting what? They are receiving, so to say. They are getting their share. Then, well, Himmler delivers his goods. 'He said publicly, the Jews will die, and they will die in agony. They will die. So where are they taking them?' He says 'Don't you worry, They will die'. What I understood, then the train went somewhere and they actually died in those trucks. Some of them were taking later, I learned, to Sobibór. And in Sobibór, they were finished.

- They were gassed?

- Yes. Why they didn't do it at that time in Bełżec? I don't know. Because they were doing this before in Bełżec for months. They actually were gazing the Jews before.

- There were six gas chamber in Bełżec.

- At that moment, and this is the date now is important. When later on, trying to investigate how it was, yes, apparently the end of October or November the camp liquidated completely with the last remnants of the Jews shifted to Sobibór and secondly, at that last stage, Jews from other gettos passed through Bełżec being shifted somewhere else.

- Yes, but the quick line in the in the wagons. It was to kill them.

- Apparently, hygienic purpose. They were dirty. They were smelling. If they died, the composition and secondly, what I understand, to die in agony. They had to urinate. Then it would burn their feet, of course, if they were barefoot. But at the same time, yes, from the Nazi standpoint, it was to purify.

- Yes, but it was to kill them, too.

- And to kill them and make them die in agony, some sort of, well, you know, indescribable.

- Well, Professor Karski, I know that the Jewish underground organized for you on this is rather unbelievable, a visit inside the extermination camp of Bełżec in November 1942. I would like you to try to recall and to describe what you saw in this death camp. As a matter of fact, this never happened. We have no testimonies whatsoever and no evidence of anybody being able to enter the extermination camp of Bełżec. Those are camps, too, Sobibór or Treblinka, and coming out alive. This is something absolutely extraordinary and probably very difficult for you to remember and to describe. But please try.

- Well, evidently, the whole visit to Belges was organized by the Jewish underground. Evidently, they had many means to organize this a trip. Evidently, I didn't know the details how they did it. I entered the camp in company of an Estonian militiamen, wearing a uniform of an Estonian militiamen and having some sort of ausweis that I was allowed to enter the camp and leave the camp, having shown the ausweis. Now, I approached the camp from Bełżec, where I got the uniform, guided by another genuine militiaman who, evidently, was a scoundrel. In our conversation, the matter of fact, he took me for a man who, as it was called at that time in Poland, dealt with the Jews, which means through bribery, money, trying to save some-

- This was a usual traffic in Poland, this dealing with the Jews?

- Very well known. Of course, I had no dealings with this kind of people, so I don't know. Was it many cases, was it occasional? But the term dealing with the Jews meant, yes, you were trying to make some money, blackmailing the Jew in some cases, denouncing a Jew in some cases, helping a Jew to escape wherever he want in some cases, selling him false passports, Arbeitskarte, whatever it is. Generally, it was called dealing with the Jews. Now, approaching the camp, half a mile, one kilometer whatsoever. Already, I heard the wild shouts, tumultuous. I already realized I was approaching some unusual situation. Of course, I had experience. I was twice in the Warsaw Ghetto.

- Excuse me, did you know when you went there that Bełżec was a death camp?

- Yes, Bund leader told me that I will see something which I never saw, that I will never forget it. I'm going to see a death camp, actually a death camp, Jewish ghetto was not a death camp. It was only degradation. It was a way to death. I'm going to see a death camp now. And the same, I want you to see it and you will tell them later on. They will believe you. You saw it. Assuring me we will do everything possible. You will be safe. You will be safe. You will get over it and we will get you out. Now, approaching the camp now, hearing those inhuman groans, shouts, shots, I approached a railroad which seemed to me rather primitively built. It was not one of the main railroads. It was on my left. Now, the camp was on my right. The camp, there was no a wall like in Warsaw, essentially barbed wire. I don't think it was electrified, but genuine barbed wire. Now, the Estonian militiaman leads me. On my right, I have the camp. On my left side, I see the track. Now, there were several, so to say, exits. Some of them, primitive, mainly barbed wire between two poles, could be open outside.

But there was some main, apparently an entrance. The gate was solid gate. Of course, pole solidly built. Then well, because continuation, the barbed wire. I entered the camp, not through the main gate, through one of those primitive entrances. Now, the militiaman, apparently, he had instructions that for one reason or another, I want to see as much as possible what is going to happen. Then already within the camp, he directs me what he called good spot, which was-

- Did you ask him what was the meaning of these screamings, of these shoutings that you heard on the way?

- Oh, yes, on my way. Well, his answer was the Jews are had. You will see it. Today, the Jews are had. As a matter of fact, I remember he said something, there is a new batch which is going to be processed today. Now, he leads me to the area of the main gate. As a matter of fact, now he whisper to me, 'Listen, I am going a little away. If something happens, remember, you don't know me, I don't know you'. At this point, I am alone. Now, from the main gate, the main gate at this point was open, again, outside. I remember the gate consisted of two parts, open outside. From the gate, in front of the gate, there was a cattle train Now, I counted. 46 tracks were there.

- 46 wagons?

- Wagons, yes. I had no difficulty counting them because the train was moving. Now, there was this ramp platform from the gate leading to the train, almost directly to the train. Now, as you know, cattle train does not have steps only on a high level, so it is not easy to enter the train. If you want to leave it, you have to jump, of course, down. And now, in that part of the camp, and I don't know how many, it must have been 5,000, 4,000, 6,000. Well, this cannot be described. Not humanity. Crowd moving, some collective moving body. The Jews, women, children, men, shouting, quarreling with each other, fighting against each other. Evidently hungry. Evidently not knowing probably what is happening here. I specifically remember some Jew totally, completely naked. And somehow, again, standing. Why he was naked? I don't know. Perhaps he threw his clothes. Perhaps people took his clothes.