Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 2)

- What? So now in this nightmarish two meetings I had with them. Nightmarish meetings. Well, then they presented their demands separate demands.

- Did they show some hope in the fulfillment of these demands or not?

- Yes, some of them, yes. It must be done. For instance, Polish authorities on certain subjects so far failed to do their duties. So they were hopeful you may help us. Certain things must be done, certain demands. No, they don't. Didn't believe themselves.

- They didn't believe what they asked for.

- Yeah. So now do you want me to deal with this problem of their demands?

Of course.

- What did they wanted? So on the President of the Polish Republic I covered intervention with the Pope next to the Allied governments only. And in this way I was supposed to do my utmost to see whomever my cleverness, my shrewdness, my perseverance would allow me to reach them. Only officials. Government officials. Polish government, not very important. You will have to talk to the Prime Minister, to the Minister of Interior, to the Council of Ministers, officially present to them our demands. What is more important? Allied leaders.

- Allied?

- Yeah. At that time I didn't know, they didn't know that I would reach also America. I didn't expect it. So British government leaders. The message was 'Jewish situation is unprecedented. It never happened before. Hitler cannot be allowed to continue extermination. Consequently, every day counts, thousands of Jews are being murdered. The allies, allied governments cannot treat this war only from purely military strategic standpoint. They will win the war if they take such an attitude. But what good will it do to us? Hitler will lose the war against humanity, but he will win his war against the Jews. The Allied governments cannot take such a stand. We contributed to humanity. We gave scientists for thousands of years. We originated great religions. We are humans'.

- It's what they said.

- Yes. The allies cannot disregard the uniqueness of our problem.

- Well, they say that Hitler will lose the war, but that he will win his war against the Jews.

- What good do the Jews will come out of his victory? At times they were almost hateful towards me. They were whispering almost with hatred 'You Poles, you will survive. You will win this war. You will rebuild your country. You will live, you will make sacrifices, but you will survive as a nation. But we are perishing. Do you understand? We will not survive this war. Then we understand. We have no country of our own. We have no government. We have no voice in the Allied Councils. So we have to use services little people like you are. So we are trying our best. Will you do it? Will you approach them? Because so far nothing happens. The Allied we Listen to the radio. They are making winning the war victories, but we are perishing. Nobody's helping us here. So what is good to us out of all of this? Will you fulfill your mission? Whatever you can do. You are a little man. Perhaps you will be able to contribute something to this problem. Approach the allied leaders. We want an official declaration of the allied nations that in addition to the military strategy which aims at securing victory, military victory in this war, extermination of the Jews forms a separate chapter.

And the Allied nations formally publicly announce that they will deal with this problem, that it becomes a part of their overall strategy in this war. Not only defeat of Germany, but also saving the remaining Jewish population. Once they make such an official declaration, they have air force. They drop bombs on Germany. Why cannot they drop millions of leaflets on the German population informing the German population exactly what their government is doing to the Jews? Perhaps they don't know it, but they have data. They have statistics through radio, other means. We give the name of the officials, German officials. We offer statistics. The data is available. Let them inform the German people officially as the governments. This is what the German government is doing. Let them officially, publicly inform the German people. We, the allies, allied governments, we expect that the German people will exercise pressure, whatever pressure you can exercise on your own government, that they stop it. Whatever harm they did, every day counts. They must do it now'.

- They had an extraordinary feeling of urgency, of emergency.

- Yes, naturally. Day after day, extermination continued. This was only August 1942. Next.

- And it's Berman who said I think that...

- He was more. Yes, I think Zionist. Yes, Zionist.

- That the Germans understood...

- But most outspoken was Bund leader apparently Fajner. Then our situation is unique. We understand that many people may also feel helpless what to do. So we present the demands also, which we know ourselves. Probably they cannot do. But we have to present those demands. They were like men, the both of them. At a certain point they were grabbing my. 'Do you understand it? Do you understand it? Let them announce that German war prisoners, having been informed what happens to the Jews, still profess allegiance to their government. Let them be held responsible for this, for those crimes'. Then 'There are many German nationals in the allied countries. Those Germans. And we understand they are allowed to do it. Who professional allegiance to Germany, still having been informed what happens. Let the allies hold them responsible for it. We understand. Perhaps they will not do it. We have to advance these demands. Young men. Do you understand? Do you understand? We have to do it to show to them it never happened before in historic. What is happening to Our people. Now perhaps it will shake the conscience of the world. This you will give to the government officials. Whatever officials you will be able to'.

- They asked even for, is what you write in your book, for execution of these Germans who were in the hands of the allies.

- If it is necessary for execution, holding them responsible.

- You protested against this.

- At that time, I was already an educated man. I studied law. Part of my curriculum was international law. This is against international law. Do you realize? I will. They will not do it. Say yes, we know it. We want you to say it. To show to them that this is again and again unique situation. That unprecedented actions have to take place. Whatever. This is what is on my mind. Perhaps this will help. Perhaps it will help. Let them try. Whatever the allied governments, the allied nations cannot disregard the Jewish extermination. They cannot just look for military victory. And then like mad, walking in the room. 'Do you understand? Do you understand? Do you understand?', 'Yeah, I will do it'. So this was one mission. Next by the way, there are representatives Polish Jews. They take part in your National Council, in your government.

- In London.

- In London. Probably they cannot do too much. We don't doubt that they are trying to do their best. Yes. Then probably representatives of the Polish Jews in the government cannot do more. But there are international Jewish leaders for centuries. We hear that they are so powerful, that they are so influential in every country. In England, in America, in France. What are they doing? We want evidence. We don't see evidence. They send us money. It is insufficient by the way, the amount of money we receive. It is totally insufficient. But we don't see any evidence. What else do they do? So where is their influence? Reach as many as possible. Tell them this. They cannot. They must do more. We don't know what they can do. But we want to see that they are doing more for us.

- But, excuse me, what did they request precisely from the Polish Jews who were members of the government?

- There were also precise demands. My message was. Apparently, they considered three individuals as, say, authoritative representatives of the Polish Jews. Shmuel Zygielbojm, member of the National Council. Dr. Schwarzburt, member of the National Council. Dr. Leon Grossfeld, who was not a member of the Bund. He was a leader of the Polish Socialist Party. They considered him. He also, as a Jew, represents the Polish Jews. I reported to those three. As a matter of fact, when I came to London and began reporting, there was another individual. His name was Tartakover. By the way, he wanted to see me. I refused. 'I have no message to you. If you want to know what I brought ask Shmuel, ask Schwarzbart, ask Grossman'. I never saw Tartakover. I know he resented it. So now, as far as the Polish Jews were concerned, this was the message to them and to the Prime Minister of the Polish Government, General Sikorski, and to the Minister of Interior, Władysław Mikołajczyk. The problem was such. There are some Jews who escaped from the ghetto. They live, some of them, under false documents. They do not look Semitic, and they are living among other Poles. Second, there are Jews who succeeded to escape from Poland who are in hiding. Many of them living with Polish families in the cities or in the countryside.

- Proceeded to escape from the ghetto.

- From the ghetto, yes. Now we know there are Poles who blackmail them, who murdered them, who denounced them to Gestapo. 'We are Polish citizens. Man, do you understand that? We are Polish citizens. There is an underground. You say you are an underground state. You are the government. You must take an action against them. General Sikorski, as Commander in Chief and as a Prime Minister of Poland, must issue orders that the underground movement in Poland will apply punitive sanctions. Executions included, secret executions. Kill them and then publish the names of those whom you killed in the underground press and give the nature of their crimes'. Underground press was very widely spread. 'Then others will learn about it. This is a risky business. Such orders must be issued'.

- It's a risky business to blackmail the Jews and to denounce them.

- Yes, yes. Now I remember. When I reported this to Zygielbojm, and it was at a point he was already totally disintegrated. He burst out. Such orders will be issued. I will blow up Sikorsky's office if he does not issue this order. Beginning with February or March 1943, I have photostatic copies. Executions were carried out. The names were published in the underground press. The nature of the crime was specified and the commitment of the civil Commission it was called. Executions will continue against those against whom we have evidence that they committed one of those three crimes. This was to Sikorski, Mikolajczyk and the Polish leaders, Jew's. I was specifically forbidden, by the way, in this respect not to discuss this problem with any political party leaders. They suspected some of them might not like it. Apparently only to those individuals. Next. I was specifically forbidden to discuss the subject with any non Polish Jew.

- This means English Jew, American Jew.

- They were making the point. This may feed anti Polish propaganda of anti Semitism. We don't want it. We want to survive. This is not a political matter.

- But there's something else from Zygielbojm, on the other Polish Jews.

- What do you mean?

- To enter in hunger strikes in front of the government and so on.

- So this was another part of the mission. I carried this mission. Well then, yes, there was another problem. I didn't know it at that time. I was not acquainted with the Jewish problem or Jewish activities. Both of them. Particularly now the Zionist leader, he was again like whispering, hissing to me 'Something is going to happen. Particularly young elements. They will fight. They speak about declaration of war against the Third Reich. Unique war in in the world history. They say they want to die fighting'. By the way, I didn't know at that time. Irgum already was active at that time. October only later I learned already Jewish military organization emerged. I had no idea. They didn't tell me about it. Only that something is going to happen. The Jews will fight. We approached the commander of the Home Army. They need arms. Those arms were denied.

- They were refused.

- Refused. We know that when they start fighting, we know how it will end. But they are Polish citizens. They want to fight against the enemy. They cannot be denied arms. If such arms exist. And we know you have arms. This message to recall Commander in Chief General Shikovski to issue orders that those arms will be given to the Jews.

- This means that they forsaw.

- Apparently they knew at that time. I didn't know, but apparently. See, but I... Well, when they asked me to carry the message complaining against the commander in chief of the Home Army, I refused to carry the message unless they authorized me to seek an appointment with him. To repeat to him what message I am carrying.

- Excuse me. When they were requesting for arms already at this time. This means that they foresaw that there would be the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

- Apparently I understand my role in this film. At that time I didn't know anything about it.

- And their man said, I think I would like you to repeat this. That it will be the most desperate war which...

- Yes, The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto they are talking about it. They want to wage. They declare a war against the Third Reich. Never such a war took place. They want to die fighting. What can we do? We cannot deny them this kind of death. Well, and then arms. No. So at that point I refused to carry the message unless they authorized me to seek an appointment with the commander in chief of the Home Army, General Stefan Rowiecki, who by the way perished one year later. To repeat to him the complaint and to ask him for comments. They heartily agreed. Go, go. I did go. I did see him. His answer was "I am a military commander. I act within the statute which the Home army has. I am subjected to orders which are coming from the Commander in Chief. Now I do have arms. I am using those arms and I don't have many of them. First, for daily sabotage of my members of the Home Army. Second, for larger diversionary activities, derailing trains, blowing up buildings, etc. The most important I act within our general strategy that I cannot waste any army.

I have to keep them. Because when the end of Germany will come and when the Russian armies will push them on our territories and we come to the conclusion that this will be a proper moment, I must have every weapon I can put my hand on it to stab Germany in the back. Now I know that the Jews in the ghetto are contemplating some military action. I understand, I have respect for it. But militarily it is without any significance. What can they do against the Third Reich? I will give them whatever the Commander in Chief, General Sikorsky orders me to do. Otherwise it is beyond my jurisdiction'.

- Did he talk at the time about. I think I remember so. About the ability or the inability of the Jews to fight. I think he had some distrust in this respect.

- Well, as far as I remember he did not consider it as a military. As an action of military significance. But he was a military leader. He acted within his statute. This was a moral standpoint which had to be applied ethical whatsoever. But he would do it. He must receive order that his.

- As a matter of fact, he said the same thing as Berman. When Berman told you this will be the most hopeless declaration of war.

- Yes, Only Berman wanted.

- Yes, I know.

- And he says I act under orders. Within the structure of my organization only military actions count. I must receive specific orders from the Commander in Chief. Now I did carry the message. The message was again Zygielbojm, Schwarzbart, Grossfeld and only Sikorski. To nobody else. Particularly again they emphasize 'you will not speak about it to any non Polish Jewish leader. It may arouse anti Polish propaganda. We don't want it. We are not interested in it. We want to deal with our own business'. I reported. Because again you must realize at that time my mission was important. But I was a little man. Nobody told me what were they going to do with what I told them to do. The same with General Sikorski. Orders will be issued. We will handle this problem. Lieutenant, at that time I was supposed to go back to Poland. Lieutenant, either you or somebody else will carry orders. What orders? He didn't tell me. I couldn't ask him. General, what are you going to do about it. Now what I understand and realized after the war, by the way from the Jewish publication, that when the Warsaw Uprising, Warsaw ghetto uprising started, April 1943, they did receive some small arms at the beginning.

- The first delivery that Rowecki he made was only 10 pistols.

- Yes, this I have no information, you know, how many, what... I understand that he gave them some machine guns. Yes, some machine guns, some light weapons. Now, was it the result of my mission? Did he receive orders? Did he do it on his own initiative? What do I know about then? At a certain point I remember I raised this question. Those demands are so varied on such a scale. Well, I can see my situation in London. What Zygielbojm? Who Schwarzbart, what Grosfeld? What can they do about it? I am sure they are doing their best. So then again, like a nervous breakdown. I think again that it was a Zionist. Again he shook me. 'So what? Again impossible. Yes. Here you are saying impossible. So? So nothing. Nothing they cannot do'. Tell them they are Jewish leaders. Their people are dying. There will be no Jews. So what for do we need the leaders? We are going to die as well. We don't try to escape. We stay here. Let them go to important offices in London. Wherever they are. Let them demand for action. If it is refused, let them walk out, stay in the street, Refuse food, refuse drink. Let them die.

- Let them die.

- Slow death. Die. Die. Slow death. In view of all humanity. Who knows? Perhaps it will shake the conscience of the world. They were totaled like a breakdown. Perhaps this will help. We don't know we are dying. They are leaders. Let's let them die. Yeah. So then came Shmuel Zygielbojm. Well. So what do you want me to talk about?

- You want to talk now?

- Whatever.