Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 10)

- The apostolic delegate, Archbishop Giovanni Ciccognani.

- Very friendly, benign. He called me several times my son, commanding my activities. I reported to him again, the Jewish part. He was very much interested in the Catholic Church, the Catholic faith of the Polish people who under present horrible circumstances, do they still follow the Holy Mother Church? 'All hierarchy is praying for us. You can be sure, my son, whatever you told me will be reported to proper ecclesiastical authorities. May God be with you'.

- And the Jews? And the Jews?

- No reaction.

- No reaction? And Spelman, Archbishop Spelman?

- The same.

- The same?

- Mooney, the same. Strich, the same. Mind you, you know I want to save again for the sake of the record that I don't say it in criticism or in condemnation of any one of them. They had their own problem. Catholic Church operates in any circumstance under slavery, under feudalism, under Hitler, under Stalin. The Church has its own problems. The church has to act. The church has spiritual considerations.

- But there was really no special command or a sign of, let's say, compasion information about the Jews.

- This, again, I want to be precise. Thirty-five years past, what was some particular comment of any one of them on the subject? Did they answer? Horrible. Did they answer? I don't remember this. You understand my problem. I don't want I don't want to lie. I don't want to be imprecise.

- Now, let's come to the influential American Jews. Let's take a Rabbi Stephen Weiss, President of the World Jewish Congress.

- Yes. First as a personality, dignified. He looked like a philosopher, evidently, aware of his importance, very friendly, matter of fact. He impressed me. He impressed me because he was asking me many questions, not so much on the ghetto or on the Bełżec camp, but questions pertaining to the help of the Jews in Poland.

- Excuse me, but were you able, for instance, to why to describe the Bełżec camp on the train?

- Yes.

- How did he react?

- Frankly, I don't remember. The way I see him, he's in my memory. Again, this man, as I have him in my head, again, he was not emotional on this.

- You remember Zygielbojm, but you cannot remember why.

- Yes. Zygielbojm for obvious reasons, of course. Now, Rabbi Weiss asking me many questions. For instance, money. 'If the financial help will go through the Polish government. Is it effective? How do we do it?' As a matter of fact, I had information on this subject, mainly if there is an emergency, the delegate of the Polish government has funds in Warsaw. He has funds in dollars, in pounds, in the Polish currency, in the German currency. Now, if there is an emergency and the Polish government instructs the delegate of the government in Poland to advance money immediately, the delegate has possibilities to do it. But of course, the delegate will expect that eventually this money in such a currency will be forwarded to him. He has his own budget. So why he was interested in... I want to say something which pertains to Goldman, I remember.

- Okay, say...

- Goldman. Goldman, for instance. Well, His personality, he looked like a businessman. He acted like a businessman. I don't know what was his profession. But again, very much interested in those technical problems. Problems, technical problems, without emphasizing reprisals, bombing, mainly in what way the help could be given to the Jews. Mostly financial, medicine, how do I see this problem? Food, the currency, and the passports.

- What did they say about the request from the Jewish leaders in Warsaw? I mean the retaliatory bombings of German towns, but with explanations on the executions of, let's say, war prisoners or German nationals. Did you mention this to them?

- Oh, yes.

- What did they answer?

- Again, on particular points, I wouldn't remember. Now, on the point reprisal against German nationals and against German war prisoners, there was not a single individual, Jewish or non-Jewish. This cannot be done.

- All right. But generally speaking, when the Jews in Warsaw said that their problem, this means their destruction, couldn't be handled in a purely military manner, that one had to find something else. Did this, this specific people, this Jews, did they understand this or not?

- They did.

- I'm sure they did. Was there the same rescue through victory?

- No, no, no. They did understand this problem. They sympathized with the Polish Jews. Something has to be done in this respect. They will do their best, but this would end the subject.

- Did you have the feeling that they understood the fantastic emergency that every day was too late because this is what you were in charge to convey-

- I think they did not.

- You think they did not?

- They did not. It was a serious problem, a tragic problem. We are doing our best. So much can be done. The rest cannot be done. We are doing whatever we can do in this problem. Rather, from the Jewish leaders, rather, I was getting this kind of reaction. And then Jewish leaders, most of them interested. Well, how to do it? Every day. Goldman, as I mentioned, very much interested in the question of passports.

- Do you recall your meeting with—this is a British one—Richard Law, who is now Lord Coleraine, and who was in April '93, the British Delegate to the Conference of Bermuda, Bermuda Conference, the so-called Refugee.

- He was Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Foreign Service, for the Foreign office in 1943.

- Do you remember?

- I think that he was more disinterested than others.

- More disinterested?

- Yes, than others. In this particular part of my mission. But I do not remember, you know, any particular points, whatever. Somehow it stands in my mind. I may be unfair. You realize I met dozens and dozens of people 35 years past, and I know I shouldn't-

- I ask you a question to yourself now what is the meaning of Bełżec, when one is in Washington?

I don't know how to put this question because it's difficult to formulate. What is the meaning of Bełżec or of Treblinka seen from Washington or from New York? I talk at the time or from London. For yourself, for instance, when you were reporting, reporting, reporting every day, like a machine, as you said, Did you remember Bełżec when you were here in Washington?

- Yes. Of course, not in the way I remember it now. As I mentioned, now I'm much weaker emotionally, so I break down. I avoid it. At that time, yes, I was a machine. I was a report.

- But how do you judge the people who, through what you said, didn't grasp the real meaning of what it was? Is it possible to grasp Bełżec when one lives in Washington, a complete other world?

- At that time, probably not. It might have been possible if every one of those individuals actually was there. Because now, all of us, we are intelligent people. It was unprecedented. This things really never happened for a normal human being, educated having political responsibility, a leader. All of us we know our brain, our concepts can operate on only within certain limits, mainly what the environment puts, books, knowledge, information puts into our brain. At a certain point, probably our brains are not able to grasp that.

- Another question, there were many horrors during this war, and there are many horrible things which happened since the war up till now. Do you think that something can today be compared with destruction of the Jews?

- No.

- No?

- I don't know of anything. Throughout human history, I don't know of anything which could be compared. This is the problem. -

Up till now?

- Even now. Even now, take the problem, the second World War. Every nation suffered. I don't hesitate to say, probably the Russians suffered the most. 20 million people destroyed. Then the Greeks come in line, I know about. And then Serbs come in line, and then Poles come. Now, a question could be asked, and as a matter of fact, at various stages of this film, this question emerged. Is there any comparison between what happened to the European Jews during the Second World War? Could it be compared to any happening in the past history? Whatever I know about history, totally unique. It was a problem in itself, unprecedented historically. Humanity, one could say healthy humanity, rational humanity, which did not see with their own eyes, were not actually there. They had no precedent to compare it. As you know, I mentioned this. Thirty-five years past, I have been conditioned by the American environment. Now, naturally, in my mind, I know it was true. I cannot handle it. What I saw in this respect, Jewish extermination is incomprehensible for me. I cannot handle it. I can handle perfectly well, Polish problem. I discussed it in my classes.

Czech, Serb, Russian. I understand, I comprehend. I could speak about it calmly. Russian. History is cruel to many nations, to many individuals. I ran away. I tried to eliminate what I saw as far as the Jews were concerned. Now, not only history did not see such an event before. Nothing happened since then which could be compared. Of course, again, history is cruel. Nations fight, individuals hate, political considerations enter a picture. Conquest, torture, prison, collective responsibility, wars, victorious wars, defeats in the wars. We see it now. We look around the world. We have it. Nothing can be compared with this. The problem is this is unique, this is unprecedented. So how to? Who could, probably, this is my speculation, comprehensive. Probably, you would have actually, actually you would have to take Lord Selborne and place him in Bełżec. Because this is impossible. Lord Selborne do not end their lives in Belges. They end their lives in bed, regardless whether war was won or lost. This is this uniqueness, which I'm sure even now humanity does not grasp. Nazi German, Hitler, total defeat. Hitler died like a rat, self-inflicted death. Naturally, in despair, in frustration, humanity betrayed him. He lost, Germany lost the war. Now, again, you have a unique situation. He won a war. He won a war against the Jews. All his plans, all his policies, totally successful. He won. Even this is unprecedented.

- He won this war, yes.

- A victory on such a scale, which means five to six million people of the same group, and this means all of them destroyed. This is unprecedented. This is unique. It didn't happen before. It didn't happen since.

- Yes.