Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection, Interview with Jan Karski (part 1)

- Well, Presov was a little hole in Slovakia, and their methods of interrogation were rather primitive. Beating, beating, beating. SS-men interrogated me. I was supposed to look at him, answer his question without any delay. A man behind me, if I stopped, if I tried to think would hit me here. Apparently, this is a painful place.

- On your teeth?

- Then they were beating me. They broke my teeth, they broke my jaw, they broke my ribs. I couldn't take it anymore. My bad luck was that they had Laica They knew that I was, from their standpoint, evidently a spy. I was sure that it was developed totally. It wasn't. Mainly apparently, water did not come to the end. Some last four or five squares, like I had 38 or something squares. At a certain point, SS officer brings it and he says 'What is this?' Now, thinking that everything was destroyed, my explanation was 'I am not concerned with the war. I have a girlfriend in Switzerland. I lived in Switzerland before', which was true. I gave correct name, street, whatsoever. 'I wanted to escape from Poland, live in Switzerland, get out of this mess. I have nothing against Germans. I don't want to live in Poland. I have enough of it'. I found a man who told me 'Give it in Geneva to somebody'. I gave the name fictional now. 'What is inside?' I asked him, 'Pictures of the ruins of Warsaw. There is nothing else in this film'. For this, he gave me money and promised me that his friend in Switzerland will pay me for it.

This is why I have this film. SS-man now takes it from his drawer, stretches, gives me a magnifying glass, says 'Read it'. And then to my horror, I see the last four or five squares not even coded, pure, clear text of some report which was insignificant. Names, only first letters, and then he says 'You are lying'. So then beating, beating, beating. You must tell us who you are, who sent you. He was a rather cultured man as a matter of fact, that young men good-looking, efficient whatsoever. His point was 'You are in the Polish underground. We want to get in touch with you, with your leaders. We want to have some settlement. We are not interested in killing the Poles. We are not interested in destroying your elite. We must find some accommodation so that the Poles will not fight us anymore'. Well, the war is practically over. It doesn't make any sense. 'For this, you must enable us to get in touch with your authorities'. Of course, I was playing the role. I'm stupid. I don't know anything, etc. Beating. Well, I couldn't take it anymore. Now, in my shoe, I had a blade, very primitive at the time. I got both hands succeeded cutting.

- You cut your hands.

- Now, I had... This is after cosmetic operation, eventually, in 1943. So at that time, it was earlier. They saved me. Now, apparently, they considered that Presov is not safe for me. They send me back to Poland by car with two Gestapo with me. Now, I had good luck. They send me to Nowy Sącz, from which I departed, and where I had a liaison girl who was responsible for my trip. They send me to a prison hospital, public hospital, only in my room. Gestapo every eight hours, they were changing and treating me. I was badly hurt. My hands were this.

- You were very important for them.

- Yes, they wanted to save me, apparently for confrontations. My point was, I learned it is nowy Sącz, how to establish contact with the girl. I succeeded, mainly. First, there was a doctor. His name is Słowikowski. He still lives in Poland. I saw him after the war. When he treated my hands, he just whisper to me 'You are very sick. Simulate that you are very sick. Try to stay in the hospital as long as possible. We will do something. You are sick'. So I understood. I was mortally sick all the time. Then I want to go to confession. I committed a mortal sin. I want to go to confession. In that hospital, there was a chapel. Gestapo agreed. Also on the wheels, I went to mass, I went to confession, and then I played a luck. A priest, whatever I say, is safe. I confessed, got absolution, and then I stay. Slovak language is very similar to Polish. I don't know Slovak. In Polish I whisper 'Father, I have more to say', 'What?', 'Somebody has to go. Such is the name, such is the address. There will be a young lady. And tell her what happens here.

I am Wittold. Tell her Wittold is here'. My pseudonym at that time. 'Amusing story' father answered 'My son, this is confession. This is not politics. You have no right to ask me for this'. But then he said 'Well, I will think about it'. Two or three days later, a nun comes. They were allowed to serve. Well, two or three days later, a nun enters my room. They were allowed to serve the hospitals. She brought me some apples, some cookie. She approaches my bed. I recognized it was my liaison girl. She put everything. She whispered to me 'Józek notified'. Józek was at that time the most prominent socialist leader. After the war, he served for 18 years as the Prime Minister of Poland.

- And he was in Auschwitz, too.

- Yes, the same one. He organized my escape. Now, I whisper now to the nun, to the liaison girl 'Do everything, whatever they want. I cannot go back to Gestapo. I cannot take torture any longer. Either let them save me or let them give me cyanide. I cannot take it'.

- Cyanide.

- Cyanide.

- Poison.

- Poison. She returned again, two days, whatever it is, brought me some fruits, put her hand under a pillow .This is signed. Very well organized. This is a pill. Put it. It is well adapted. On a tape with hair around it whispers to me 'Put it under your groins. Don't use it. Józek told me they will try to save you. Only in extreme, take it'. They saved me. Very simply. Apparently, what I learned later, one of the Gestapo man was so-called Volksdeutsche. They bought him. They gave him some false documents, money. He ran also. He did not see that some few nights on some signal from doctor Słowikowski, I had to take all my clothes, naked get out of my room, cross the corridor, approach a window. The window would be open and jumped down without thinking about anything else.

- Completely naked?

- Completely naked. I jumped down and some husky man. It was, I believe, the second floor, nothing. Husky man, some clothes took me. There is some river, to a river, to a boat. I thank them profusely for saving my life. The guy who later became my friend said 'Well, don't thank us too much We had two orders to save you if there would be complications to shoot you'. He says 'That's all right. We were lucky. You were lucky'. Took me to some estate, a little estate which the German allowed them to function. And I spent there some three months, first to recover. Secondly, we had a rule in the underground. Once you were arrested by Gestapo and then you escaped, we called it you had to pass through quarantine period. You are not kosher, you know, we have to check, are you observed, are you followed, or perhaps you are a double agent whatsoever. Three months passed, I recovered completely. I wanted to go back. Still, they kept me over there. Then they said, All right, I went back to Cracow, spent in Crakow for five months. This is now, we are 1940. Then in Crakow, arrests took place.

At the matter of fact, at that time, Commander of Kraków, Home Army, was Bor Komorowski. He left Crakow, went to Warsaw, became Deputy Commander-in-Chief. And eventually, when Rowecki was arrested in July 1943, he became Commander-in-Chief. He writes about me, his book here, all this missions. He left Cracow. I left Cracow as well. Then came Cyrankiewicz, mainly. In April, I remember, Easter time, Cyrankiewicz arrested. I had highest admiration for him. He saved my life. As a matter of fact, I volunteered to the Polish Socialist Party, if there is some rescue squad, I must be in it. He said, 'My life, I want to contribute now something for him'. They rejected this. They said 'You are intelligent. This is a rough, tough job. You are not good for this things'.

- Okay.

- Well, some quote in the middle of 1942, first I was thinking about it to continue my service as a courier. Among others, I approached the delegate of the Polish government in the underground. At that time, it was a certain Professor Piekałkiewicz. He said 'Yes, if you want to go, it is a little dangerous because you are marked.

You have still your wrists are recognizable. And of course, Gestapo knows that you escaped, but perhaps it will work'. As a matter of fact, the socialist leader, Pużak, he was against sending me, but I insisted, they agreed to do it. So now I went in the same character, approaching the leadership of every political major parties: peasant party, socialist party, nationalist party, Christian Labor Party, the messages from the delegate of the government. And everyone had right to ask me to deliver their messages either to their groups in London or even to the individuals. They trusted my memory, and they trusted my honesty. I will not make any intrigues.

- You didn't take any kind notes?

- None whatsoever this time.

- Everything was memorized?

- Purely, everything was in my head. Nothing, except one thing. This is now we are in 1942. Already, our equipment better. Already Americans and British supplied us. Yes, I did take mainly microfilm. The size of it was like American matches, some three matches put together row. It was melted into a key, small key, and then melted back. And my mission was to hold the key, completely unrecognizable. This I succeeded to carry with me. I was not arrested during that time. Then in London, when they developed that microfilm, it represented 400 typed pages. Such technique was already developed. Americans entered the picture and already helped us. So this was the only message I had. Of course, I had no slightest idea what was in that key. Only hold this key. If there is a danger, of course, throw it as the... Otherwise, everything to my memory. Now, when I agreed and started to circulate between political parties and then political council, we had a council of the political parties attached to the delegate of the government, Now, the Jewish leaders learned about it. The courier goes, apparently he's reliable, they learned about me. Now, the Jewish leaders, they had their own underground movement.

As you know, in Poland, you had 100 types of Jews, assimilated, not assimilated, organized, I presume you know, they had a multitude of political parties, groups, orientations, etc. Now, the most important groups was Bund and Zionists, politically. Both of them already were, so to say, incorporated into the apparatus of the delegate, but they were separate. They had their own organization. Well, at a certain point, the information came from the delegate of the government that Jewish leaders want to see you. Apparently, they want to use your services. Do you want to see them? Yes, I want. Meeting, meeting, we arranged I met them twice.

- When was it?

- This was in October 1942, at the beginning.

- At the time where the situation of the Jews of Warsaw was a catastrophe.

- Yes. At the beginning of October, and of end of September probably, possibly. By that time, Jewish ghetto in Warsaw, which originally consisted of approximately 400,000 Jews, over 300,000 were already deported between somehow July, August, whatsoever, September. Still in the ghetto at that time, were approximately 50,000 Jews left.

- All the others had been already gassed in Treblinka?

- Yes. As a matter of fact, at that time, even the ghetto, practically, there were four ghettos within the walls of the original ghetto. In some parts, the areas could move. Some parts of it were empty. Nobody wanted to go to Deepland, live over there. The most important part was the so-called Central ghetto around the Platz Muranowski, Ulica Muranowska, I don't know whether you visited it.

- I did.

- This was the part I was smuggled in. Well, so now to the meetings. A meeting was arranged. There were two gentlemen. It was very formal at the beginning. They introduced themselves. I represent for the sake of this meeting. Bund, one. I represent Zionists.

- They didn't give their names?

- Nobody gave their names, only Polish leaders, I knew them. I was in contact several times. Of course, nobody introduced. Nobody was supposed to know my name as a matter of fact. We had pseudonyms only with the Polish leaders.

- That's because you knew them.

- Yes, I knew who they were. Now, Those two gentlemen, I was never involved in Jewish affairs. As you know, I'm not a Jew, so I didn't know them, naturally. Until today, I do not know their names. Only after the war, in all Polish publications, they mentioned that the men who represented Bund was Fajner.

- Leon Fajner.

- Yes. I never knew during the war when even I reported to London. I did not report the name. Only authorized leader of Bund told me this and this. Second, Zionist. In the Polish publications after the war. They say he was Berman. They introduced themselves and then they told me 'We know about you. We know you are going to London. We also have messages. Will you take messages from us? We are Polish citizens. We feel we are entitled to the services, but this is up to you mr. Witold' was my pseudonym. I said 'Yes, I will do it'. Then they presented their demands.

- Can you describe the meetings, the two men? Did it take place in the ghetto, the meeting?

- Two eyes, two houses outside of the ghetto. They did not live in the ghetto. Zionist leader never went with me to the ghetto. On my two visits to the Warsaw ghetto, Bund leader accompanied me, apparently Fajner Zionists' leader, I never met him again. I never met again after those meetings, even as a Bund leader, naturally. Yes.

- But let's come back to the first meeting.

- In some old house, ruined, cold. It was beginning of October. Cold. They were well dressed relatively undistinguishable from the natural area. Then during the meeting at various points, so to say, they did break down.

- They broke down?

- Yes, they broke down. They were, of course, excited, frustrated, shouting, whispering, walking the rooms. When they were describing their demands, what do they want. Well, so now I go back in my memory to the other world. So What is your... Do you want me now to deal with those two sessions or about the ghetto?

- No, the two sessions. What did they ask specifically to you to report to the world?

- They gave me several messages. Some of them, one of them, only to the President of the Polish Republic, Władysław Raczkiewicz. They specifically forbid me to discuss this subject with the Jewish leaders in London. Mainly, they were afraid that in their zeal, despair, frustration, they might complicate the problem. The problem was the Germans are physically exterminating the Jews. From whatever we know, this will continue regardless of the outcome of the war. On humanitarian basis, Zionist, as a matter of fact, interjected, Christianity has roots in Judaism. We feel entitled to expect protection from the Vatican. Sanctions must be applied against Catholiques who take directly or indirectly any part in Jewish extermination.

- Excuse me, did they give you the feeling, did they have themselves the feeling that what was at stake at the time was extermination, not of individuals, but of the whole of the Jewish people in Poland?

- Both of them. They had no doubts about this. The most outspoken was the Bund leader.

- What did he say?

- In this respect. Well, of course, majority of the Poles consider themselves Catholic. I repeat now their reaction. Now, however, there are very many Germans, many German officials who not only are born Catholic, but who consider themselves still Catholics. As a matter of fact, Hitler was a born Catholic. From whatever we know about your Catholic Church, we understand the Pope has a jurisdiction in excommunicating the faithful. We leave it to the wisdom, to the conscience of the President of the Polish Republic, to approach the Pope. You will discuss it only with him, not even with the Prime Minister, not with the Jewish leaders. We understand diplomatic protocol, only the head of state can approach the Pope on our behalf to apply sanctions against the Catholic, both Polish and Germans, and to make those sanctions public. Perhaps it will help a little. Who knows? Perhaps Hitler will reflect if excommunication publicly will be announced.

- What did they ask specifically was excommunication?

- They mentioned several times, We know excommunication is in the jurisdiction of the Pope. There are precedents that he did.